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Can we please first analyze the problem before we call for regulation? Are touch screens really causing accidents or are they just inconvenient? I hate touch s

by planb 3y ago

Can we please first analyze the problem before we call for regulation? Are touch screens really causing accidents or are they just inconvenient? I hate touch screen controls in cars for things that are adjusted during driving like everyone else here. But please let’s not go for a default of „the state has to allow it“ for all new inventions - as dumb as they may be.

hbn 3y ago
You can ask anyone who uses them. Most people will say they feel like they're distracted and taking their eyes off the road while trying to navigate the UI on their touch screen, and the remaining people overestimate their multitasking abilities. What is there you think needs proving? People can adjust the volume knob or AC without looking. You literally cannot do this with a touchscreen.
sdf4j 3y ago
it’s not q “dumb invention” it’s a cost saving measure at the expense of injuring people.
AutumnCurtain 3y ago
I think he's pretty well analyzed it. Personally, I've had to drive a car full of toddlers with no heat in winter because my touch screen gave out and it was unsafe both to pull over and to try and troubleshoot while driving. This happened in a 2023 model year high end minivan. My 2009 mazda POS with physical knobs has never had a single problem in over an order of magnitude more time.
- nxm 3y ago
  Climate control boards working off physical controls are known to go out as well.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - 2devnull 3y ago
    In a Mazda?
jvanderbot 3y ago
Well yes - there has been some research on the use of touch screens in safety critical systems. For example: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 "We got away from the physical throttles, and that was probably the number one feedback from the fleet - they said, just give us the throttles that we can use," said Rear Adm Galinis. (EDIT: TFA also talks about buttons, and not being able to find information on screens). OP article is probably a case of the market working it out if Volkswagen is doing it without regulation. I doubt Tesla-like multi-modal touch screens are going to be default ever. They were never a good idea. But regulation is essentially the people coming together to say "never again", and that is their right in a democracy. Like it or not as inventors or inventor-adjacent folks we might look more harshly at it. But we also have that power and I don't see a problem per se in using it to direct the market on somewhat trivial things like this. My wife will finally be able to use my phone chargers b/c of the EU legislation on apple chargers.
- jansan 3y ago
  > Well yes - there has been some research on the use of touch screens in safety critical systems. For example: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 That article is about controls on a military system. You make it sound as if people are steering their cars with touch controls, which they don't. Screw overregulation, I do not want the government to assume that I am a complete idiot and regulate every single part of my life.
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    I'm just quoting the article. TFA talks about not being able to find information on touch screens. The quoted portion talks about tactile controls. Both were a problem. "Overregulation" is a squishy political term. We cancel each other out on this issue (assuming you're US-based). I'm not advocating for car controls to have regulations, but would be fine if they took sensible action. But they probably won't need to.
bedobi 3y ago
> Can we please first analyze the problem before we call for regulation yes, let's prevent regulators from applying and enforcing no brainer life saving safety regulations without first being required to spend decades studying each individual issue and then litigate each individual issue for another couple of decades, ensuring that nothing ever gets regulated ever because that's what you're asking for, whether you realize it or not
conductr 3y ago
Let’s also not pretend this was a new invention and/or innovation. It was a (big) change to UX/UI of mass consumer heavy machinery, something that should absolutely require some due diligence and regulation should exist to ensure sufficient due diligence is taken proactively in cases precisely like this. The auto industry is quite used to navigating regulatory hurdles, I doubt this would have been a hindrance. It’s just a matter of requiring them to be proactive about it. I think it also may not have mattered. We, as in contemporary humans, continue to devalue our attention/focus in regards to our technology. I think that’s the core problem with digital UI is they just requiring too much of our active attention where as physical knobs allow us to passively perform actions with muscle memory (low attention requirement) If they took all the knobs and put some in the glove box and some inside the console and some in the back seat and so on… we wouldn’t consider that an invention. It would just be obvious that the knobs were difficult to access. That’s basically what they did but act like it’s fine because technically they’re still right there on the dash.
ok123456 3y ago
HCI people have been analyzing this problem since the 80s, and the consensus, outside of a few grifters who told Elon Musk what he wanted to hear, is that operating a complicated modal interface while driving is unsafe. It's not even safe to talk on the phone hands-free while driving.
Erratic6576 3y ago
How big should the corpse pile sein? In summer 2017, the USS Fitzgerald collided with a container ship near the Japanese mainland in an accident that killed seven sailors. The McCain was off the coast of Singapore when it hit a container ship, killing 10 of the Navy destroyer's crew. The report blames touch screens. IMHO, car screens are useful to watch some telly or films during your boring commuting https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450

by planb 3y ago

hbn 3y ago

You can ask anyone who uses them. Most people will say they feel like they're distracted and taking their eyes off the road while trying to navigate the UI on their touch screen, and the remaining people overestimate their multitasking abilities. What is there you think needs proving? People can adjust the volume knob or AC without looking. You literally cannot do this with a touchscreen.

sdf4j 3y ago

it’s not q “dumb invention” it’s a cost saving measure at the expense of injuring people.

AutumnCurtain 3y ago

I think he's pretty well analyzed it. Personally, I've had to drive a car full of toddlers with no heat in winter because my touch screen gave out and it was unsafe both to pull over and to try and troubleshoot while driving. This happened in a 2023 model year high end minivan. My 2009 mazda POS with physical knobs has never had a single problem in over an order of magnitude more time.

nxm 3y ago
Climate control boards working off physical controls are known to go out as well.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 2devnull 3y ago
  In a Mazda?

jvanderbot 3y ago

Well yes - there has been some research on the use of touch screens in safety critical systems. For example: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 "We got away from the physical throttles, and that was probably the number one feedback from the fleet - they said, just give us the throttles that we can use," said Rear Adm Galinis. (EDIT: TFA also talks about buttons, and not being able to find information on screens). OP article is probably a case of the market working it out if Volkswagen is doing it without regulation. I doubt Tesla-like multi-modal touch screens are going to be default ever. They were never a good idea. But regulation is essentially the people coming together to say "never again", and that is their right in a democracy. Like it or not as inventors or inventor-adjacent folks we might look more harshly at it. But we also have that power and I don't see a problem per se in using it to direct the market on somewhat trivial things like this. My wife will finally be able to use my phone chargers b/c of the EU legislation on apple chargers.

jansan 3y ago
> Well yes - there has been some research on the use of touch screens in safety critical systems. For example: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 That article is about controls on a military system. You make it sound as if people are steering their cars with touch controls, which they don't. Screw overregulation, I do not want the government to assume that I am a complete idiot and regulate every single part of my life.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  I'm just quoting the article. TFA talks about not being able to find information on touch screens. The quoted portion talks about tactile controls. Both were a problem. "Overregulation" is a squishy political term. We cancel each other out on this issue (assuming you're US-based). I'm not advocating for car controls to have regulations, but would be fine if they took sensible action. But they probably won't need to.

bedobi 3y ago

> Can we please first analyze the problem before we call for regulation yes, let's prevent regulators from applying and enforcing no brainer life saving safety regulations without first being required to spend decades studying each individual issue and then litigate each individual issue for another couple of decades, ensuring that nothing ever gets regulated ever because that's what you're asking for, whether you realize it or not

conductr 3y ago

Let’s also not pretend this was a new invention and/or innovation. It was a (big) change to UX/UI of mass consumer heavy machinery, something that should absolutely require some due diligence and regulation should exist to ensure sufficient due diligence is taken proactively in cases precisely like this. The auto industry is quite used to navigating regulatory hurdles, I doubt this would have been a hindrance. It’s just a matter of requiring them to be proactive about it. I think it also may not have mattered. We, as in contemporary humans, continue to devalue our attention/focus in regards to our technology. I think that’s the core problem with digital UI is they just requiring too much of our active attention where as physical knobs allow us to passively perform actions with muscle memory (low attention requirement) If they took all the knobs and put some in the glove box and some inside the console and some in the back seat and so on… we wouldn’t consider that an invention. It would just be obvious that the knobs were difficult to access. That’s basically what they did but act like it’s fine because technically they’re still right there on the dash.

ok123456 3y ago

HCI people have been analyzing this problem since the 80s, and the consensus, outside of a few grifters who told Elon Musk what he wanted to hear, is that operating a complicated modal interface while driving is unsafe. It's not even safe to talk on the phone hands-free while driving.

Erratic6576 3y ago

How big should the corpse pile sein? In summer 2017, the USS Fitzgerald collided with a container ship near the Japanese mainland in an accident that killed seven sailors. The McCain was off the coast of Singapore when it hit a container ship, killing 10 of the Navy destroyer's crew. The report blames touch screens. IMHO, car screens are useful to watch some telly or films during your boring commuting https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450