8 ms·

> If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours searching through the local intranet for some information, then that makes your team faster. I'll

> If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours searching through the local intranet for some information, then that makes your team faster. I'll be blunt here. I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general. Trying to make one person feel guilty that someone else can't do independent study is very toxic in my opinion, and I usually remove myself from under management that approaches leadership like that. Asking questions should always be done, in my opinion, _after_ you tried to unblock yourself by RTFM-ing. If people feed you information every time you're stuck, it seldom sticks to your mind as well as going through the motions yourself.

woooooo 3y ago
I'm as frustrated as anyone with "let me Google that for you" style interruptions but you don't ship anything alone. You need a team.
justinclift 3y ago
> I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general In a lot of situations that would be considered fairly toxic itself. :(
- mariusor 3y ago
  How so? The camaraderie that companies try to enforce on their low lever employees with this kind of manipulation is nothing but a ruse. Why do you think that a whole team of people should be responsible for the inability of some? I have empathy for individual people that start their careers and struggle, but I also believe that if you apply for a job, you should be qualified to do it independently.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    camaraderie in a team is a job requirement for me. without it i'll be out of there in no time. i simply do not want to work with people who can't be bothered to be nice and helpful to each other. i do not want to be just a cog in a machine that grinds out work without any consideration for the project as a whole. it is also needed to allow new team members to get onboarded faster. as a hiring manager i find your attitude unwelcome.
    - mariusor 3y ago
      That's perfectly fine. I think the world is large enough so we can coexist in peace. Also I don't dismiss camaraderie that appears spontaneously between coworkers, I was complaining about the company enforced fake camaraderie that gets pushed down everyone's throats with trite team building exercises, company parties, team goals and other methods of hammering people into conformity. > it is also needed to allow new team members to get onboarded faster. Of course, it's fine to have team members absorb domain knowledge through interactions with their peers, but if that's the only way to on-board them, I most definitely don't want to work for you, but again, that's fine, I'll just look elsewhere.
      - em-bee 3y ago
        i agree with the forced stuff. but i expect a level of interaction to be naturally there so that enforced camaraderie is not even needed. it's fine to have team members absorb domain knowledge through interactions with their peers, but if that's the only way to on-board them, I most definitely don't want to work for you ok, you lost me here. what other way is there? it's not possible to assess all the knowledge a new hire has. if i have to hire a trainer to get them up to speed it will just cost more money and they will not learn the company specific domain knowledge. in my experience specifically onboarding can only be done by others on the same team. it's a teams responsibility. for more thoughts on this topic, see the discussion here: https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/119085/who-should-train-new-programmers-junior-or-senior-programmers https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/1190...
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        > I was complaining about the company enforced fake camaraderie that gets pushed down everyone's throats with trite team building exercises, company parties, team goals and other methods of hammering people into conformity. This is nothing to do with what you said before, about not wanting team performance to be important. Unless you're there to do a very specific job, a lot of performance is actually about team performance. If nothing else, the bus factor on people who want to do things solo makes them an automatic liability.
uxp8u61q 3y ago
> I'll be blunt here. I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general. Don't be surprised when others show the same level of empathy towards you, then. It's not about making you feel guilty, it's about making you do you effing job. Unless you're in a very junior position, your job is not to pump out code day in and day out.
- mariusor 3y ago
  I'm not sure what exactly you're reading in my words, but I don't really understand why you think it's my "effing job" to provide training for inexperienced developers. My contract stipulates no such thing, and despite what you seem to assume, I have been in fact hired to find solutions, and write code. It's a little disconcerting to see someone make such self assured inferences about me, based on a single comment.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    when i hire someone, their job is to do whatever it takes that is in their capacity to move the project forward. if it takes a larger team, then getting new team members up to speed is part of that. and if that new team member is unfamiliar with the frameworks the team is using then training them on that is part of the job too.
    - mariusor 3y ago
      Are you just telling me that you don't want to do your job properly as a hiring manager, which in my opinion would be to get the best people for the job, and that you prefer to pass the buck to your team to train them? I mean, sure, that's fine if this is stipulated from the start, but if you expect someone to solve leet code, do programming homework, and then when they get hired they have to also navigate your extra requirements and teach people the basics of their job (because probably you couldn't be bothered to pay enough) then in my opinion you're taking advantage of these people pure and simple. And to top it off, I know managers sometimes fools themselves that the team is invested in the "project moving forward", but that's rarely the case. As an individual I probably don't give a damn about the project, unless we're solving one the big issues of the world. The bullshit CRUD application you work on, or the latest cryptocurrency is just a means to get a paycheck for most of the people, and if you expect anyone to fake enthusiasm for it you're just deluded.
mikrl 3y ago
>I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general. Your job security is extremely dependent on the health of your company and team. If the structures which provide your employment contract start failing, and you do nothing about it, don’t be surprised if you get bitten. I don’t expect appeals to empathy will work based on your posts, and I hate “we are a big family” smoke and mirrors too, but let’s be pragmatic here. The fact that your job even exists is predicated on a social and legal contract to provide your expertise for the benefit of a multi-person entity. Team health does also depend on nudging those who can’t RTFM to do so… you can be an asshole, but you need to be a prosocial one as far as the company is concerned.

woooooo 3y ago

I'm as frustrated as anyone with "let me Google that for you" style interruptions but you don't ship anything alone. You need a team.

justinclift 3y ago

> I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general In a lot of situations that would be considered fairly toxic itself. :(

mariusor 3y ago
How so? The camaraderie that companies try to enforce on their low lever employees with this kind of manipulation is nothing but a ruse. Why do you think that a whole team of people should be responsible for the inability of some? I have empathy for individual people that start their careers and struggle, but I also believe that if you apply for a job, you should be qualified to do it independently.
- em-bee 3y ago
  camaraderie in a team is a job requirement for me. without it i'll be out of there in no time. i simply do not want to work with people who can't be bothered to be nice and helpful to each other. i do not want to be just a cog in a machine that grinds out work without any consideration for the project as a whole. it is also needed to allow new team members to get onboarded faster. as a hiring manager i find your attitude unwelcome.
  - mariusor 3y ago
    That's perfectly fine. I think the world is large enough so we can coexist in peace. Also I don't dismiss camaraderie that appears spontaneously between coworkers, I was complaining about the company enforced fake camaraderie that gets pushed down everyone's throats with trite team building exercises, company parties, team goals and other methods of hammering people into conformity. > it is also needed to allow new team members to get onboarded faster. Of course, it's fine to have team members absorb domain knowledge through interactions with their peers, but if that's the only way to on-board them, I most definitely don't want to work for you, but again, that's fine, I'll just look elsewhere.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      i agree with the forced stuff. but i expect a level of interaction to be naturally there so that enforced camaraderie is not even needed. it's fine to have team members absorb domain knowledge through interactions with their peers, but if that's the only way to on-board them, I most definitely don't want to work for you ok, you lost me here. what other way is there? it's not possible to assess all the knowledge a new hire has. if i have to hire a trainer to get them up to speed it will just cost more money and they will not learn the company specific domain knowledge. in my experience specifically onboarding can only be done by others on the same team. it's a teams responsibility. for more thoughts on this topic, see the discussion here: https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/119085/who-should-train-new-programmers-junior-or-senior-programmers https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/1190...
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > I was complaining about the company enforced fake camaraderie that gets pushed down everyone's throats with trite team building exercises, company parties, team goals and other methods of hammering people into conformity. This is nothing to do with what you said before, about not wanting team performance to be important. Unless you're there to do a very specific job, a lot of performance is actually about team performance. If nothing else, the bus factor on people who want to do things solo makes them an automatic liability.

uxp8u61q 3y ago

> I'll be blunt here. I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general. Don't be surprised when others show the same level of empathy towards you, then. It's not about making you feel guilty, it's about making you do you effing job. Unless you're in a very junior position, your job is not to pump out code day in and day out.

mariusor 3y ago
I'm not sure what exactly you're reading in my words, but I don't really understand why you think it's my "effing job" to provide training for inexperienced developers. My contract stipulates no such thing, and despite what you seem to assume, I have been in fact hired to find solutions, and write code. It's a little disconcerting to see someone make such self assured inferences about me, based on a single comment.
- em-bee 3y ago
  when i hire someone, their job is to do whatever it takes that is in their capacity to move the project forward. if it takes a larger team, then getting new team members up to speed is part of that. and if that new team member is unfamiliar with the frameworks the team is using then training them on that is part of the job too.
  - mariusor 3y ago
    Are you just telling me that you don't want to do your job properly as a hiring manager, which in my opinion would be to get the best people for the job, and that you prefer to pass the buck to your team to train them? I mean, sure, that's fine if this is stipulated from the start, but if you expect someone to solve leet code, do programming homework, and then when they get hired they have to also navigate your extra requirements and teach people the basics of their job (because probably you couldn't be bothered to pay enough) then in my opinion you're taking advantage of these people pure and simple. And to top it off, I know managers sometimes fools themselves that the team is invested in the "project moving forward", but that's rarely the case. As an individual I probably don't give a damn about the project, unless we're solving one the big issues of the world. The bullshit CRUD application you work on, or the latest cryptocurrency is just a means to get a paycheck for most of the people, and if you expect anyone to fake enthusiasm for it you're just deluded.

mikrl 3y ago

>I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general. Your job security is extremely dependent on the health of your company and team. If the structures which provide your employment contract start failing, and you do nothing about it, don’t be surprised if you get bitten. I don’t expect appeals to empathy will work based on your posts, and I hate “we are a big family” smoke and mirrors too, but let’s be pragmatic here. The fact that your job even exists is predicated on a social and legal contract to provide your expertise for the benefit of a multi-person entity. Team health does also depend on nudging those who can’t RTFM to do so… you can be an asshole, but you need to be a prosocial one as far as the company is concerned.