25 ms·

Price. Its one operation to install a touch monitor. While its Y operations for Y number of buttons.

by tokai 3y ago

arlcode 3y ago
And cabling for each of them. At least: Y * (1 cable + 2 plugs + 1 port at the controller + clips). Wire Harnesses for modern cars are seriously complicated affairs[0]. And even using more modern variants they still need to be installed manually. [0] https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/carmakers-are-rushing-to-adopt-simpler-modular-wiring-harnesses/ https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/carmakers-are-rushing-to-a...
- malermeister 3y ago
  Why is Zigbee or similar not an option there? I have a whole bunch of physical controls all around my house without running a single wire, why can't car manufacturers do the same?
  - kubik369 3y ago
    Think about it a bit more. You still need wires for power, you can’t be swapping batteries in car accessories as you can in your home. If you are already running wires for power, running 1-2 more for data is not that problematic, you are already running the harness. In addition, you don’t want the latency and unreliability of wireless solutions in a car. It might be ok in your home, but not in a pretty rough environment such as your car. It would also be much more expensive both hardware and software wise, not even mentioning the potential bugs and such.
    - arlcode 3y ago
      Exactly. The HW is pretty cheap but no HW is cheaper. It has a ripple effect for other parts. Button for everybody: More expensive and can't be sold as a package Button optional: No Button -> Hole in plastic molded cover -> Either need different molds/parts or an additional preparation step removing the plastic covering the hole. Car manufacturing is traditionally very low margin business and extremely streamlined. Sooner or later EVs will also end up in the same situation
- synecdoche 3y ago
  No need for wiring from the controller. A distributed IO breakout box at each cluster site, with CAN communication in between, would suffice.
dagw 3y ago
Yet as a general rule, the cheaper a car is the more buttons it has.
- tokai 3y ago
  Because the cheap car has an old and unmodernized production line.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    I don't think that is the reason. Cheap cars simply have less feature while expensive ones have tons of features + associated settings.
simondotau 3y ago
My parents have a 2019 Subaru Forester and it has too many buttons. It also has too many screens each with their own settings menu. Which goes to show that the battle isn’t really between buttons vs screens, but rather good UX vs bad UX.
freetanga 3y ago
But the monitor can range in price - the more features you put in it, the better (pricier) it should be, specially vs cheaper buttons. To serve a level of functionality, you have a curve described as PriceOfMonitor(MonitorQuality) + X * PriceofCheapButtons
bradfa 3y ago
This! At a previous job we moved all our less expensive products to capacitive touch buttons and resistive touch screens because it's tremendously cheaper than physical buttons. Cap touch buttons or physical buttons both require a circuit board, so that costs the same, but cap touch buttons just need one big sheet of material with some screen printing placed over the circuit board. Physical clicky buttons require each button to be designed, manufactured, screen printed, and the clicky action to be tuned for feel and durability, none of which is cheap. Physical buttons may not all be exactly the same size and shape due to design considerations, so that's injection mold tooling variations, additional supply chain part numbers to manage, and additional ways that manufacturing can screw up assembly. Physical buttons can jam, get stuck, or fall out, so engineering time needs to be spent ensuring this won't happen 10 years from now, too.
- coldpie 3y ago
  > At a previous job we moved all our less expensive products to capacitive touch buttons and resistive touch screens because it's tremendously cheaper than physical buttons. I hate whoever was responsible this decision. After Internet connectivity, this is the 2nd worst trend in modern electronics.
  - ta1243 3y ago
    Spend $40k on a new car, but they've saved a few bucks on some real buttons. I'm sure someone made the decision and said "I've just saved $10m by slashing our BOM by $50".
  - ricardobayes 3y ago
    No love for a wifi-connected vacuum cleaner?
smrq 3y ago
I hate how I have to plug in all 104 wires to make my keyboard work.

Price. Its one operation to install a touch monitor. While its Y operations for Y number of buttons.

by tokai 3y ago

Price. Its one operation to install a touch monitor. While its Y operations for Y number of buttons.

And cabling for each of them. At least: Y * (1 cable + 2 plugs + 1 port at the controller + clips). Wire Harnesses for modern cars are seriously complicated affairs[0]. And even using more modern variants they still need to be installed manually. [0] https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/carmakers-are-rushing-to-adopt-simpler-modular-wiring-harnesses/ https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/carmakers-are-rushing-to-a...

malermeister 3y ago
Why is Zigbee or similar not an option there? I have a whole bunch of physical controls all around my house without running a single wire, why can't car manufacturers do the same?
- kubik369 3y ago
  Think about it a bit more. You still need wires for power, you can’t be swapping batteries in car accessories as you can in your home. If you are already running wires for power, running 1-2 more for data is not that problematic, you are already running the harness. In addition, you don’t want the latency and unreliability of wireless solutions in a car. It might be ok in your home, but not in a pretty rough environment such as your car. It would also be much more expensive both hardware and software wise, not even mentioning the potential bugs and such.
  - arlcode 3y ago
    Exactly. The HW is pretty cheap but no HW is cheaper. It has a ripple effect for other parts. Button for everybody: More expensive and can't be sold as a package Button optional: No Button -> Hole in plastic molded cover -> Either need different molds/parts or an additional preparation step removing the plastic covering the hole. Car manufacturing is traditionally very low margin business and extremely streamlined. Sooner or later EVs will also end up in the same situation
synecdoche 3y ago
No need for wiring from the controller. A distributed IO breakout box at each cluster site, with CAN communication in between, would suffice.

dagw 3y ago

Yet as a general rule, the cheaper a car is the more buttons it has.

tokai 3y ago
Because the cheap car has an old and unmodernized production line.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  I don't think that is the reason. Cheap cars simply have less feature while expensive ones have tons of features + associated settings.

simondotau 3y ago

My parents have a 2019 Subaru Forester and it has too many buttons. It also has too many screens each with their own settings menu. Which goes to show that the battle isn’t really between buttons vs screens, but rather good UX vs bad UX.

freetanga 3y ago

But the monitor can range in price - the more features you put in it, the better (pricier) it should be, specially vs cheaper buttons. To serve a level of functionality, you have a curve described as PriceOfMonitor(MonitorQuality) + X * PriceofCheapButtons

bradfa 3y ago

This! At a previous job we moved all our less expensive products to capacitive touch buttons and resistive touch screens because it's tremendously cheaper than physical buttons. Cap touch buttons or physical buttons both require a circuit board, so that costs the same, but cap touch buttons just need one big sheet of material with some screen printing placed over the circuit board. Physical clicky buttons require each button to be designed, manufactured, screen printed, and the clicky action to be tuned for feel and durability, none of which is cheap. Physical buttons may not all be exactly the same size and shape due to design considerations, so that's injection mold tooling variations, additional supply chain part numbers to manage, and additional ways that manufacturing can screw up assembly. Physical buttons can jam, get stuck, or fall out, so engineering time needs to be spent ensuring this won't happen 10 years from now, too.

coldpie 3y ago
> At a previous job we moved all our less expensive products to capacitive touch buttons and resistive touch screens because it's tremendously cheaper than physical buttons. I hate whoever was responsible this decision. After Internet connectivity, this is the 2nd worst trend in modern electronics.
- ta1243 3y ago
  Spend $40k on a new car, but they've saved a few bucks on some real buttons. I'm sure someone made the decision and said "I've just saved $10m by slashing our BOM by $50".
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  No love for a wifi-connected vacuum cleaner?

smrq 3y ago

I hate how I have to plug in all 104 wires to make my keyboard work.