8 ms·

I'm not sure why car manufacturers thought it's a good idea to have essential controls on a touchpad you have to look at to navigate. I mean, shouldn't you be l

I'm not sure why car manufacturers thought it's a good idea to have essential controls on a touchpad you have to look at to navigate. I mean, shouldn't you be looking at something else when controlling a vehicle?

rurounijones 3y ago
Touch screens are cheap and allow for post-release UI modifications.
- Maakuth 3y ago
  This VW solution really is worst of both worlds, as these are capacitive surfaces with printed symbols. So you cannot really iterate on them post-release.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Automotive grade, smart touch screens are not that cheap. And all the do is allowing for lazy development and the release of pre-Beta software if used the way they currently are.
  - ajross 3y ago
    > Automotive grade, smart touch screens are not that cheap. Oh, come on. It's a laptop panel. It's not "smart", it's just the same display/touchscreen component you can find for $150 on Alibaba or whatever.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      It is decidedly not. First, the environmental conditions, heat, cold, vibrations, sun (just ask Tesla how those cheap non-automotive grade screen did). Second, if the screen is just used to capture input and display atuff, sure it is stupid. A lot aren't so as they include some computing power. But hey, good luck sourcing your parts for serial car manufacture, or anything even remotely serious in a commercial environment, from Alibaba... What's your alternate source of choice, Wish or Temu?
yreg 3y ago
The motivation is the same as what Steve claimed in the 2007 iPhone keynote – you have to reuse the buttons you put in the device for all interaction and that makes it clunky. And if you get a great new idea after you ship the product, then tough luck, you cannot change the buttons anymore. I personally drive a Model 3 and would appreciate to have a few more physical buttons though. (But it's not a bug deal for me.)
- b3kart 3y ago
  > But it's not a bug deal for me. Did you type this on a touchscreen? ;-)
- hliyan 3y ago
  I used to drive a Nissan Juke that I felt had the best of both worlds: a regular screen with a physical dial and buttons that change function based on the context displayed on screen (e.g. AC, drive mode). The buttons even had little screens on then so that they could display the function label.
- smolder 3y ago
  If you actually have a great new idea, you can put it in the next model of car. Updating cars shouldn't go beyond navigation data.
  - yreg 3y ago
    Absolutely disagree. Do you feel that way about other devices as well, or is there something special about cars?
    - smolder 3y ago
      Yes, there is something special about cars. Design mistakes result in death. It's not a race to get the most features out, it's a race to get the most features into proven, quality-assured, heavily-tested products. The software development mindset of "we'll fix it later", or "get the MVP out ASAP" has NO place.
tokai 3y ago
Price. Its one operation to install a touch monitor. While its Y operations for Y number of buttons.
- arlcode 3y ago
  And cabling for each of them. At least: Y * (1 cable + 2 plugs + 1 port at the controller + clips). Wire Harnesses for modern cars are seriously complicated affairs[0]. And even using more modern variants they still need to be installed manually. [0] https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/carmakers-are-rushing-to-adopt-simpler-modular-wiring-harnesses/ https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/carmakers-are-rushing-to-a...
  - malermeister 3y ago
    Why is Zigbee or similar not an option there? I have a whole bunch of physical controls all around my house without running a single wire, why can't car manufacturers do the same?
    - kubik369 3y ago
      Think about it a bit more. You still need wires for power, you can’t be swapping batteries in car accessories as you can in your home. If you are already running wires for power, running 1-2 more for data is not that problematic, you are already running the harness. In addition, you don’t want the latency and unreliability of wireless solutions in a car. It might be ok in your home, but not in a pretty rough environment such as your car. It would also be much more expensive both hardware and software wise, not even mentioning the potential bugs and such.
      - arlcode 3y ago
        Exactly. The HW is pretty cheap but no HW is cheaper. It has a ripple effect for other parts. Button for everybody: More expensive and can't be sold as a package Button optional: No Button -> Hole in plastic molded cover -> Either need different molds/parts or an additional preparation step removing the plastic covering the hole. Car manufacturing is traditionally very low margin business and extremely streamlined. Sooner or later EVs will also end up in the same situation
metafunctor 3y ago
Not sure what you mean, actually. Navigate? You mean pressing the microphone button and saying "Let's go home", or some other kind of navigation? Route planning typically happens when stationary — or if you have passengers, they'll obviously use the systems onboard (or on their personal devices) to do navigation. But if you're driving alone, and no-one else is navigating for you… you'll have to stop.
- Marazan 3y ago
  As in navigate the menu system.
  - metafunctor 3y ago
    If it would come to that, I would just not do it. It would be a peripheral activity anyway, if it's not afforded by my steering wheel or voice controls. So, yes, I would stop to navigate that. Not sure what that would be, in your car? In my car that might be something like planning the charging for the next night, or unexpectedly running out of battery and planning a detour? Very rare.
    - HPsquared 3y ago
      Depending on the road, you might have to wait 10+ minutes before there is anywhere to stop.
      - metafunctor 3y ago
        To stop for charging?
        HPsquared 3y ago
        Stopping for food, say. You're on the road in unfamiliar territory, it's lunch time, you need to eat. What do?
        3y ago
simondotau 3y ago
And that’s a tolerable outcome if the UX is responsive and well designed. Tesla can just barely get away with their approach because the software is sufficiently good. Unfortunately most legacy auto seem to have hired their talent directly from printer manufacturers like Canon and Epson. So blindly copying Tesla isn’t going to turn out quite so well for them.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Tesla gets away with it because almost everyone esle followed them to save costs. And because they managed to convince people to cope with that shit in first place (cars are now software because of EV and reasons and all that crap).
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    > (cars are now software because of EV and reasons and all that crap) Ye EVs could potentially have less software than ICEs. Simpler motor ECU and often no gearbox or clutch. Instead the manufacturers take the opportunity to push more stuff on us.
    - Haemm0r 3y ago
      I really doubt that the FC firmware of an EV is less comolex than the software of an ice control unit.
  - 1980phipsi 3y ago
    It's simple: don't buy cars with shitty UX.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Obviously! As with AI powered smartphones and internet connected household devices, this gets harder and harder. That being said, I like the UX of our cars. But the newest ine is from 2020, the oldest one from 1982...
- 3y ago
rsynnott 3y ago
They thought it was a way to save money, but they really seem to have underestimated how much it would annoy people.
kristopolous 3y ago
Because Tesla did it and the market blindly slovenly and stupidly follows leaders regardless of their sanity. See also how every laptop is becoming a MacBook and every phone is becoming an iphone. Non removable batteries, touch screen car interfaces, soldered in memory, removal of things like headphone jacks ... Competitors fall over themselves trying to follow any design signal they see. You can disagree but you really ought to be evidence based and not just vibes.
- sixQuarks 3y ago
  Tesla did it prematurely because Musk was convinced FSD was close to being solved, and thus paying attention to the road wasn’t important. People tolerated it so there is no pressure for them to change.
  - kristopolous 3y ago
    Tesla did it to differentiate themselves in the marketplace and they thought it looked sexy. To demonstrate the validity of this response, you can apply it generally to a wide variety of things they do. The variations on the doors, all of them, the model release order being S3 X Y, it's kind of all over the place. Their logo even looks like uterus (https://twitter.com/Jam_0s/status/1531368537847214080 https://twitter.com/Jam_0s/status/1531368537847214080). They're obsessed with differentiation for the sake of it. Look at the cybertruck. It's a company run by a middle aged man with hair plugs, 3 wives and 11 children who bought a 44 billion dollar company as a vanity project.
    - sixQuarks 3y ago
      You seem too emotionally invested for me to take your comment seriously
      - kristopolous 3y ago
        You can disagree but you really ought to be evidence based and not just vibes.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

rurounijones 3y ago

Touch screens are cheap and allow for post-release UI modifications.

Maakuth 3y ago
This VW solution really is worst of both worlds, as these are capacitive surfaces with printed symbols. So you cannot really iterate on them post-release.
hef19898 3y ago
Automotive grade, smart touch screens are not that cheap. And all the do is allowing for lazy development and the release of pre-Beta software if used the way they currently are.
- ajross 3y ago
  > Automotive grade, smart touch screens are not that cheap. Oh, come on. It's a laptop panel. It's not "smart", it's just the same display/touchscreen component you can find for $150 on Alibaba or whatever.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    It is decidedly not. First, the environmental conditions, heat, cold, vibrations, sun (just ask Tesla how those cheap non-automotive grade screen did). Second, if the screen is just used to capture input and display atuff, sure it is stupid. A lot aren't so as they include some computing power. But hey, good luck sourcing your parts for serial car manufacture, or anything even remotely serious in a commercial environment, from Alibaba... What's your alternate source of choice, Wish or Temu?

yreg 3y ago

The motivation is the same as what Steve claimed in the 2007 iPhone keynote – you have to reuse the buttons you put in the device for all interaction and that makes it clunky. And if you get a great new idea after you ship the product, then tough luck, you cannot change the buttons anymore. I personally drive a Model 3 and would appreciate to have a few more physical buttons though. (But it's not a bug deal for me.)

b3kart 3y ago
> But it's not a bug deal for me. Did you type this on a touchscreen? ;-)
hliyan 3y ago
I used to drive a Nissan Juke that I felt had the best of both worlds: a regular screen with a physical dial and buttons that change function based on the context displayed on screen (e.g. AC, drive mode). The buttons even had little screens on then so that they could display the function label.
smolder 3y ago
If you actually have a great new idea, you can put it in the next model of car. Updating cars shouldn't go beyond navigation data.
- yreg 3y ago
  Absolutely disagree. Do you feel that way about other devices as well, or is there something special about cars?
  - smolder 3y ago
    Yes, there is something special about cars. Design mistakes result in death. It's not a race to get the most features out, it's a race to get the most features into proven, quality-assured, heavily-tested products. The software development mindset of "we'll fix it later", or "get the MVP out ASAP" has NO place.

tokai 3y ago

Price. Its one operation to install a touch monitor. While its Y operations for Y number of buttons.

arlcode 3y ago
And cabling for each of them. At least: Y * (1 cable + 2 plugs + 1 port at the controller + clips). Wire Harnesses for modern cars are seriously complicated affairs[0]. And even using more modern variants they still need to be installed manually. [0] https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/carmakers-are-rushing-to-adopt-simpler-modular-wiring-harnesses/ https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/carmakers-are-rushing-to-a...
- malermeister 3y ago
  Why is Zigbee or similar not an option there? I have a whole bunch of physical controls all around my house without running a single wire, why can't car manufacturers do the same?
  - kubik369 3y ago
    Think about it a bit more. You still need wires for power, you can’t be swapping batteries in car accessories as you can in your home. If you are already running wires for power, running 1-2 more for data is not that problematic, you are already running the harness. In addition, you don’t want the latency and unreliability of wireless solutions in a car. It might be ok in your home, but not in a pretty rough environment such as your car. It would also be much more expensive both hardware and software wise, not even mentioning the potential bugs and such.
    - arlcode 3y ago
      Exactly. The HW is pretty cheap but no HW is cheaper. It has a ripple effect for other parts. Button for everybody: More expensive and can't be sold as a package Button optional: No Button -> Hole in plastic molded cover -> Either need different molds/parts or an additional preparation step removing the plastic covering the hole. Car manufacturing is traditionally very low margin business and extremely streamlined. Sooner or later EVs will also end up in the same situation

metafunctor 3y ago

Not sure what you mean, actually. Navigate? You mean pressing the microphone button and saying "Let's go home", or some other kind of navigation? Route planning typically happens when stationary — or if you have passengers, they'll obviously use the systems onboard (or on their personal devices) to do navigation. But if you're driving alone, and no-one else is navigating for you… you'll have to stop.

Marazan 3y ago
As in navigate the menu system.
- metafunctor 3y ago
  If it would come to that, I would just not do it. It would be a peripheral activity anyway, if it's not afforded by my steering wheel or voice controls. So, yes, I would stop to navigate that. Not sure what that would be, in your car? In my car that might be something like planning the charging for the next night, or unexpectedly running out of battery and planning a detour? Very rare.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    Depending on the road, you might have to wait 10+ minutes before there is anywhere to stop.
    - metafunctor 3y ago
      To stop for charging?
      - HPsquared 3y ago
        Stopping for food, say. You're on the road in unfamiliar territory, it's lunch time, you need to eat. What do?
        3y ago

simondotau 3y ago

And that’s a tolerable outcome if the UX is responsive and well designed. Tesla can just barely get away with their approach because the software is sufficiently good. Unfortunately most legacy auto seem to have hired their talent directly from printer manufacturers like Canon and Epson. So blindly copying Tesla isn’t going to turn out quite so well for them.

hef19898 3y ago
Tesla gets away with it because almost everyone esle followed them to save costs. And because they managed to convince people to cope with that shit in first place (cars are now software because of EV and reasons and all that crap).
- rightbyte 3y ago
  > (cars are now software because of EV and reasons and all that crap) Ye EVs could potentially have less software than ICEs. Simpler motor ECU and often no gearbox or clutch. Instead the manufacturers take the opportunity to push more stuff on us.
  - Haemm0r 3y ago
    I really doubt that the FC firmware of an EV is less comolex than the software of an ice control unit.
- 1980phipsi 3y ago
  It's simple: don't buy cars with shitty UX.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Obviously! As with AI powered smartphones and internet connected household devices, this gets harder and harder. That being said, I like the UX of our cars. But the newest ine is from 2020, the oldest one from 1982...
3y ago

rsynnott 3y ago

They thought it was a way to save money, but they really seem to have underestimated how much it would annoy people.

kristopolous 3y ago

Because Tesla did it and the market blindly slovenly and stupidly follows leaders regardless of their sanity. See also how every laptop is becoming a MacBook and every phone is becoming an iphone. Non removable batteries, touch screen car interfaces, soldered in memory, removal of things like headphone jacks ... Competitors fall over themselves trying to follow any design signal they see. You can disagree but you really ought to be evidence based and not just vibes.

sixQuarks 3y ago
Tesla did it prematurely because Musk was convinced FSD was close to being solved, and thus paying attention to the road wasn’t important. People tolerated it so there is no pressure for them to change.
- kristopolous 3y ago
  Tesla did it to differentiate themselves in the marketplace and they thought it looked sexy. To demonstrate the validity of this response, you can apply it generally to a wide variety of things they do. The variations on the doors, all of them, the model release order being S3 X Y, it's kind of all over the place. Their logo even looks like uterus (https://twitter.com/Jam_0s/status/1531368537847214080 https://twitter.com/Jam_0s/status/1531368537847214080). They're obsessed with differentiation for the sake of it. Look at the cybertruck. It's a company run by a middle aged man with hair plugs, 3 wives and 11 children who bought a 44 billion dollar company as a vanity project.
  - sixQuarks 3y ago
    You seem too emotionally invested for me to take your comment seriously
    - kristopolous 3y ago
      You can disagree but you really ought to be evidence based and not just vibes.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]