5 ms·

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distrac

by ath3nd 3y ago

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distractions it brings: https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres-how-to-stay-focused-in-a-noisy-office-158186 https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres... https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/even-small-distractions-derail-productivity.html https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve... https://juliety.com/effects-of-distractions-at-work https://juliety.com/effects-of-distractions-at-work https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/11/why-open-offices-hurt-collaboration-and-what-can-be-done-about-it/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/11/why-open-offi... - A bunch of extroverts who just can't wait to tell you what they did over the weekend. Backed, of course, by C-level dudes who simply can't bring themselves to believe work can be done if they PERSONALLY can't see you at your desk working.

Muromec 3y ago
“I can’t back it up with data, I just know I’m right “ of course
isoprophlex 3y ago
The asshats holding the bags of money, obviously
- ath3nd 3y ago
  Bingo!
sokoloff 3y ago
Who wins? The CFO and corp real estate people (correctly) saying how much more expensive (and less flexible to changing team size) a building with enough private offices is.
- yreg 3y ago
  We have a floorplan with offices of all sizes. (Ok, the biggest ones are like a mini open space - mostly used by flexdesk people who come in only from time to time). It was more expensive, but we have zero issues with seat allocation. We don't force it and make teams always sit together. People are free to choose and switch their places, so often a project is spread across several offices and mixed with other projects. I think it's certainly superior to having an open space.
- mratsim 3y ago
  So you're saying programmers' time is not expensive enough?
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    It's probably closer to the outputs (and differences in output) not being measurable enough. I had a private office setup in one place. It was phenomenal and by far the best work environment (physical and otherwise) I've ever had. The biggest problem was: we couldn't double the size of the team without it being a half-year leasing and construction project. So, we'd sawtooth among "far too much space and lots of pent-up hiring; a Goldilocks zone; out of space; hiring freeze; lease/construct offices; loop". My office now is whatever I want to do with my house. That's also good for heads-down work (and obviously for the commute), but terrible for collaborative whiteboard design work.
    - otteromkram 3y ago
      > but terrible for collaborative whiteboard design work. Not at all. If you think so, maybe try switching jobs to non-remote and let someone fine with virtual whiteboarding take your role on.
      - eadmund 3y ago
        In my experience, there is nothing like being in a room with a team. There is something about the physicality of presence, the way the communication has both lower latency (because it is not intermediated by electronics) and higher bandwidth (because in person even things like the way someone shifts in his shoes or his eyelid quivers is information). I have worked remotely for a significant portion of the past few decades. I work remotely. I anticipate working remotely for the remainder of my career. I enjoy working remotely. But working in-person has some real advantages. I just don’t believe that they outweigh the disadvantages.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
orangepurple 3y ago
> A bunch of extroverts who just can't wait to tell you what they did over the weekend and a bunch of C-level dudes who can't believe work can be done if they PERSONALLY can't see you at your desk working. The sight of people in an open office plan is merely an expensive therapy session for these guys
- ath3nd 3y ago
  Nothing more therapeutic than the sight of your worker bees, stuffed together in the noisy hive, making you dough.
- kridsdale1 3y ago
  Lord knows many of them hate their families. Workaholism is a self soothe for those who should consider divorce.
offices 3y ago
Yet people still make arguments based off the conceit that a profit motive means businesses act like rational hive minds.
- HowTheStoryEnds 3y ago
  You can actually act rationally on fake, imagined and fraudulent data.
nitely 3y ago
idk who wins, but I'd assume extroverts need a quiet environment to be able to focus as much as anyone else.
- oblio 3y ago
  Not if they have people facing roles. In that case their job IS talking to other people. Sure, they need to prepare, but the higher up they are, the more of that preparation is done by assistants.
- DoughnutHole 3y ago
  Blaming extroverts/introverts is a red herring - it’s down to the nature of the work. Whether they’re introverts or extroverts a programmer’s job tends to require a lot of solo focus. There’s collaborative aspects of course but it always requires windows of deep work that are deeply frustrated by distraction, introvert or not. Many other areas of work (including much work in upper management) don’t require that focus. The work is often deeply collaborative and communicative, and it‘s work that can be dropped and picked up on a dime and iterated on without much loss of productivity. In a way it’s work that actively benefits from a “distracting” environment, because it’s often full of rapid-fire blockers best resolved by grabbing someone nearby. The friction comes from the fact that the people who do either type of work don’t understand the other type if their whole career has only involved one type.
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    Most programmers understand the aspects of upper management work you described in my experience. And most upper managers choose to work in separate offices.
    - ath3nd 3y ago
      I wonder why...
- closeparen 3y ago
  The extroverts are always struggling to get conference room bookings. They'd be able to converse a lot more freely by just inviting people to their always-available offices.
4star3star 3y ago
I have an office with a nice, heavy door. I don't often close it, but just knowing that it's there and that I can close if I want to is a comforting thought. That said, I think if I did always close it, I'd be more productive by a significant margin....

by ath3nd 3y ago

Muromec 3y ago

“I can’t back it up with data, I just know I’m right “ of course

isoprophlex 3y ago

The asshats holding the bags of money, obviously

ath3nd 3y ago
Bingo!

sokoloff 3y ago

Who wins? The CFO and corp real estate people (correctly) saying how much more expensive (and less flexible to changing team size) a building with enough private offices is.

yreg 3y ago
We have a floorplan with offices of all sizes. (Ok, the biggest ones are like a mini open space - mostly used by flexdesk people who come in only from time to time). It was more expensive, but we have zero issues with seat allocation. We don't force it and make teams always sit together. People are free to choose and switch their places, so often a project is spread across several offices and mixed with other projects. I think it's certainly superior to having an open space.
mratsim 3y ago
So you're saying programmers' time is not expensive enough?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  It's probably closer to the outputs (and differences in output) not being measurable enough. I had a private office setup in one place. It was phenomenal and by far the best work environment (physical and otherwise) I've ever had. The biggest problem was: we couldn't double the size of the team without it being a half-year leasing and construction project. So, we'd sawtooth among "far too much space and lots of pent-up hiring; a Goldilocks zone; out of space; hiring freeze; lease/construct offices; loop". My office now is whatever I want to do with my house. That's also good for heads-down work (and obviously for the commute), but terrible for collaborative whiteboard design work.
  - otteromkram 3y ago
    > but terrible for collaborative whiteboard design work. Not at all. If you think so, maybe try switching jobs to non-remote and let someone fine with virtual whiteboarding take your role on.
    - eadmund 3y ago
      In my experience, there is nothing like being in a room with a team. There is something about the physicality of presence, the way the communication has both lower latency (because it is not intermediated by electronics) and higher bandwidth (because in person even things like the way someone shifts in his shoes or his eyelid quivers is information). I have worked remotely for a significant portion of the past few decades. I work remotely. I anticipate working remotely for the remainder of my career. I enjoy working remotely. But working in-person has some real advantages. I just don’t believe that they outweigh the disadvantages.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

orangepurple 3y ago

> A bunch of extroverts who just can't wait to tell you what they did over the weekend and a bunch of C-level dudes who can't believe work can be done if they PERSONALLY can't see you at your desk working. The sight of people in an open office plan is merely an expensive therapy session for these guys

ath3nd 3y ago
Nothing more therapeutic than the sight of your worker bees, stuffed together in the noisy hive, making you dough.
kridsdale1 3y ago
Lord knows many of them hate their families. Workaholism is a self soothe for those who should consider divorce.

offices 3y ago

Yet people still make arguments based off the conceit that a profit motive means businesses act like rational hive minds.

HowTheStoryEnds 3y ago
You can actually act rationally on fake, imagined and fraudulent data.

nitely 3y ago

idk who wins, but I'd assume extroverts need a quiet environment to be able to focus as much as anyone else.

oblio 3y ago
Not if they have people facing roles. In that case their job IS talking to other people. Sure, they need to prepare, but the higher up they are, the more of that preparation is done by assistants.
DoughnutHole 3y ago
Blaming extroverts/introverts is a red herring - it’s down to the nature of the work. Whether they’re introverts or extroverts a programmer’s job tends to require a lot of solo focus. There’s collaborative aspects of course but it always requires windows of deep work that are deeply frustrated by distraction, introvert or not. Many other areas of work (including much work in upper management) don’t require that focus. The work is often deeply collaborative and communicative, and it‘s work that can be dropped and picked up on a dime and iterated on without much loss of productivity. In a way it’s work that actively benefits from a “distracting” environment, because it’s often full of rapid-fire blockers best resolved by grabbing someone nearby. The friction comes from the fact that the people who do either type of work don’t understand the other type if their whole career has only involved one type.
- pseudalopex 3y ago
  Most programmers understand the aspects of upper management work you described in my experience. And most upper managers choose to work in separate offices.
  - ath3nd 3y ago
    I wonder why...
closeparen 3y ago
The extroverts are always struggling to get conference room bookings. They'd be able to converse a lot more freely by just inviting people to their always-available offices.

4star3star 3y ago

I have an office with a nice, heavy door. I don't often close it, but just knowing that it's there and that I can close if I want to is a comforting thought. That said, I think if I did always close it, I'd be more productive by a significant margin....