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> Russiagate? It's one of millions of scandals where Russian influence is there for all to see Ah I see, you never became aware of how that story ended. Russi

by nvm0n2 3y ago

> Russiagate? It's one of millions of scandals where Russian influence is there for all to see Ah I see, you never became aware of how that story ended. Russiagate ended with the discovery that it had all been a lie, that there was no Trump/Russia collusion and the US media had spent years knowingly propagandizing the population. There was no scandal, except the scandal of how the media could have done that. Eventually some American journalists even admitted what had happened. https://www.cjr.org/special_report/trumped-up-press-versus-president-part-1.php https://www.cjr.org/special_report/trumped-up-press-versus-p... But you seem to be stuck in 2018, before that had all been proven. You are yourself the victim of successful propaganda!

sofixa 3y ago
Why are you still focusing on one simple example? Why are you ignoring the forrest for one funky tree? One that doesn't even disprove what I said, because Russiagate is specifically about collusion between Trump and Russia, not about the presence or absence of Russian propaganda in support of Trump. Of which undeniably there was a lot of. And again, it's one example among millions.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  It wasn't "one tree" was it, it was years and years of interlocking stories and scams, all of which were fake. The whole claim that Russia was promoting Trump was a part of that lie, but you don't seem able to let go of it.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    What's with the obsession with Trump? If you can't let go of it, think about the Quran burning guy, or the Austrian scandal.
- smsm42 3y ago
  And once you start picking apart any of those examples, you'll find out that random trolls may post some stupid and false stuff, but a coordinated disinformation campaign usually has either governmental or quasi-governmental entity behind it. You don't like Russians? Take covid origins. We had a campaign of suppressing the idea that Wuhan virology labs had anything to do with it. Who did that? Random trolls? No, it was (part of) scientific establishment and governmental entities. Why did they do it? Because they had in their interests that that theory was not being explored, and they had the resources to suppress dissent. Fortunately, this time they (mostly) failed, but it is the same set of entities that demands control over the information now, and if that control is given to them, next time they decide to do the same, they will succeed. The big problem is not that Russian propaganda exists. The problem is that hiding behind the need to "rescue" citizens from Russian propaganda, other governments want to institute an information control regime that is very similar to what Russia has. If that happens in Russia, I feel their pain, but fortunately in my country I can still speak freely. But if this goes away and I also don't have freedom of speech, then it's not Russia that is doing that to me, it's my own government. And that's what I should be afraid of - not that Russian propaganda will take my freedoms, but that my on government, hiding behind the fact that Russian propaganda exists, will take away my rights - "for my own good", of course.

by nvm0n2 3y ago

sofixa 3y ago

Why are you still focusing on one simple example? Why are you ignoring the forrest for one funky tree? One that doesn't even disprove what I said, because Russiagate is specifically about collusion between Trump and Russia, not about the presence or absence of Russian propaganda in support of Trump. Of which undeniably there was a lot of. And again, it's one example among millions.

nvm0n2 3y ago
It wasn't "one tree" was it, it was years and years of interlocking stories and scams, all of which were fake. The whole claim that Russia was promoting Trump was a part of that lie, but you don't seem able to let go of it.
- sofixa 3y ago
  What's with the obsession with Trump? If you can't let go of it, think about the Quran burning guy, or the Austrian scandal.
smsm42 3y ago
And once you start picking apart any of those examples, you'll find out that random trolls may post some stupid and false stuff, but a coordinated disinformation campaign usually has either governmental or quasi-governmental entity behind it. You don't like Russians? Take covid origins. We had a campaign of suppressing the idea that Wuhan virology labs had anything to do with it. Who did that? Random trolls? No, it was (part of) scientific establishment and governmental entities. Why did they do it? Because they had in their interests that that theory was not being explored, and they had the resources to suppress dissent. Fortunately, this time they (mostly) failed, but it is the same set of entities that demands control over the information now, and if that control is given to them, next time they decide to do the same, they will succeed. The big problem is not that Russian propaganda exists. The problem is that hiding behind the need to "rescue" citizens from Russian propaganda, other governments want to institute an information control regime that is very similar to what Russia has. If that happens in Russia, I feel their pain, but fortunately in my country I can still speak freely. But if this goes away and I also don't have freedom of speech, then it's not Russia that is doing that to me, it's my own government. And that's what I should be afraid of - not that Russian propaganda will take my freedoms, but that my on government, hiding behind the fact that Russian propaganda exists, will take away my rights - "for my own good", of course.