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I think actually you could say that virtually no Amish people truly choose their own lifestyle. If you are born into an Amish community, the Amish way of life

I think actually you could say that virtually no Amish people truly choose their own lifestyle. If you are born into an Amish community, the Amish way of life is programmed into you. You don’t have a choice in that. When you grow up, all of your peers are programmed in the same way. And the programming specifies extremely strict conservatism with respect to the programming. The Overton window is super-tight. There’s not a lot that can be changed. And any substantial change must be made by some sort of committeee. So as an Amish person you are mostly just stuck with Amishness as it is, as it always was. You don’t get to choose what it is. You just carry it on your back and pass it on to the next generation, mostly unchanged. Where is the choice in that? Edit: reworded.

digging 3y ago
That's not exactly true, as a period of adolescent self-discovery and active choice in joining the faith/community are common in Amish communities; it's usually called rumspringa. The point could be made that the rate of exit is extremely low and therefore perhaps the youths are overly programmed, but that's not a given - they are raised in a tight-knit community which is a powerful motivation to stay and not something the majority of modern Westerners actually experience.
antonvs 3y ago
> the Amish way of life is programmed into you. You don’t have a choice in that. How is this, and most of the rest of what you're saying, different from the capitalist consumer lifestyle that's programmed into you if you're not Amish? To quote you, "You don't have a choice in that. When you grow up, all of your peers are programmed in the same way." There only difference seems to be your claim that things don't change much for the Amish. But they do selectively adopt new technologies, just in ways that are consistent with their community values. Which is a discipline somewhat lacking in our tech-driven society.
- apantel 3y ago
  > How is this, and most of the rest of what you're saying, different from the capitalist consumer lifestyle that's programmed into you if you're not Amish? To quote you, "You don't have a choice in that. When you grow up, all of your peers are programmed in the same way." It’s very different. When you are born into an insular, homogenous, high-control community like the Amish, or the Haredis (Orthodox Jews), or any of the countless cult communities (e.g. Children of God, LDS), you are expected to conform to the group. Usually these groups live apart from others and don’t allow outsiders in or members out. If you are raised in such a group, your mind has basically only been shown the ways of the group. And those ways have been presented as, “This is the way.” It’s just the way. There’s the group and there’s the way. If you don’t go along with the group and walk in the ways of the way, you are shunned. There’s no room for any kind of serious challenge of the way because the way has long since been sacralized. It is religion. Modern Western culture is extremely open and heterogenous. Yes, a lot of programming gets pumped into young minds through media and the school system. But it’s not like religious indoctrination where a closed system of belief is installed in the young mind. You might think that sounds trite, but a person who is indoctrinated in a high-control community is never really shown how to ask a question that the religion doesn’t have an answer for. If they do ask such a question, they get reprimanded. They learn to just ingest and integrate the questions and answers that the group allows. The questions line up with the answers, everything is internally consistent. In contrast to that, when a young person in Western society comes of age (assuming they don’t live in a high-control community), the doors open to nearly limitless possible ways of thinking and being if the person has the curiosity to ask questions. A person can go in pretty much any direction they want with their philosophy, value system, habits, customs. They can become an anti-capitalist socialist counter-culture minimalist anarchist and ‘find their people’ just fine. All they have to do is follow their curiosity. In Western society, there are a countless doorways to different ways of thinking and being. Forums, universities, philosophers and intellectuals to follow. You can just as easily stumble INTO a high-control group that you weren’t born into. There’s no comparison between that and a community like the Amish. They literally live apart and unto themselves. There are no doorways within the community to other ways of thinking. The only doorway is the exit doorway. If a person can’t follow the way of the group, there’s no place for them within the group because of how homogenous it is, and how much generational inertia that homogeneity has. It’s really all about curiosity, critical thinking, and asking questions. What happens to you if you are curious, think critically, and ask a lot of questions in a modern, Western society? All of the doors open. What happens if you do the same in a high-control community? You get shunned, suppressed, and the only door that might open is the exit door. Edit: expanded.

digging 3y ago

That's not exactly true, as a period of adolescent self-discovery and active choice in joining the faith/community are common in Amish communities; it's usually called rumspringa. The point could be made that the rate of exit is extremely low and therefore perhaps the youths are overly programmed, but that's not a given - they are raised in a tight-knit community which is a powerful motivation to stay and not something the majority of modern Westerners actually experience.

antonvs 3y ago

> the Amish way of life is programmed into you. You don’t have a choice in that. How is this, and most of the rest of what you're saying, different from the capitalist consumer lifestyle that's programmed into you if you're not Amish? To quote you, "You don't have a choice in that. When you grow up, all of your peers are programmed in the same way." There only difference seems to be your claim that things don't change much for the Amish. But they do selectively adopt new technologies, just in ways that are consistent with their community values. Which is a discipline somewhat lacking in our tech-driven society.

apantel 3y ago
> How is this, and most of the rest of what you're saying, different from the capitalist consumer lifestyle that's programmed into you if you're not Amish? To quote you, "You don't have a choice in that. When you grow up, all of your peers are programmed in the same way." It’s very different. When you are born into an insular, homogenous, high-control community like the Amish, or the Haredis (Orthodox Jews), or any of the countless cult communities (e.g. Children of God, LDS), you are expected to conform to the group. Usually these groups live apart from others and don’t allow outsiders in or members out. If you are raised in such a group, your mind has basically only been shown the ways of the group. And those ways have been presented as, “This is the way.” It’s just the way. There’s the group and there’s the way. If you don’t go along with the group and walk in the ways of the way, you are shunned. There’s no room for any kind of serious challenge of the way because the way has long since been sacralized. It is religion. Modern Western culture is extremely open and heterogenous. Yes, a lot of programming gets pumped into young minds through media and the school system. But it’s not like religious indoctrination where a closed system of belief is installed in the young mind. You might think that sounds trite, but a person who is indoctrinated in a high-control community is never really shown how to ask a question that the religion doesn’t have an answer for. If they do ask such a question, they get reprimanded. They learn to just ingest and integrate the questions and answers that the group allows. The questions line up with the answers, everything is internally consistent. In contrast to that, when a young person in Western society comes of age (assuming they don’t live in a high-control community), the doors open to nearly limitless possible ways of thinking and being if the person has the curiosity to ask questions. A person can go in pretty much any direction they want with their philosophy, value system, habits, customs. They can become an anti-capitalist socialist counter-culture minimalist anarchist and ‘find their people’ just fine. All they have to do is follow their curiosity. In Western society, there are a countless doorways to different ways of thinking and being. Forums, universities, philosophers and intellectuals to follow. You can just as easily stumble INTO a high-control group that you weren’t born into. There’s no comparison between that and a community like the Amish. They literally live apart and unto themselves. There are no doorways within the community to other ways of thinking. The only doorway is the exit doorway. If a person can’t follow the way of the group, there’s no place for them within the group because of how homogenous it is, and how much generational inertia that homogeneity has. It’s really all about curiosity, critical thinking, and asking questions. What happens to you if you are curious, think critically, and ask a lot of questions in a modern, Western society? All of the doors open. What happens if you do the same in a high-control community? You get shunned, suppressed, and the only door that might open is the exit door. Edit: expanded.