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You’re going to have lay out a strong argument here if you want anyone to believe that ignoring the situation would lead to less hostility. We ignored russias l

by lovich 3y ago

You’re going to have lay out a strong argument here if you want anyone to believe that ignoring the situation would lead to less hostility. We ignored russias land grabs Georgia which was followed up by Crimea being taken. We ignored that and it was followed up by a full scale invasion into Ukraine. The idea that we are at fault for the hostility here and, separately, that we should have stayed out of it is ridiculous

s1artibartfast 3y ago
I dont think you understand what I am saying. I am talking about US-Russian relations and hostilities between US and Russia.
- lovich 3y ago
  If we want to be frank, I think you’re being disingenuous by talking about hostilities between nations while referencing Ukraine and then walking it back to USA-Russia relations. I think you’re either using a motte and Bailey fallacy or you’re so pro Russia you are discounting Ukraine as a state with agency. Feel free to prove me wrong by laying out a solid argument but right now everything you’ve posted seems like it’s not reliable
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    I dont think there is anything disingenuous in prioritizing US-Russia relations more and US-Ukraine relations less. Ukraine has 100% agency, but that is independent of US support. The US has agency too. I hear this ignored a lot with respect to NATO. The US can unilaterally deny any country entry- all it takes is a vote - but people in this thread act like it is helpless and has no control over admittance.
    - lovich 3y ago
      Ok, well taking you at face value, Russia opposes us on a global stage and Ukraine is trying to align with us as an ally. Why the fuck would we not back up Ukraine against Russian in this situation then, other than for the fact that Russia is threatening massive damage to us? That is a reasonable enough question to pause on, but if Russia is threatening that for land gains in opposition to values we support(democracies) then we might as well roll over and show our bellies. We have a significantly stronger military and capitulating to their threats is a net negative to us in both the short and long term. If someone threatens to kill you unless they get everything they want, you either need to decide to live with them as your master or call their bluff

by lovich 3y ago

s1artibartfast 3y ago

I dont think you understand what I am saying. I am talking about US-Russian relations and hostilities between US and Russia.

lovich 3y ago
If we want to be frank, I think you’re being disingenuous by talking about hostilities between nations while referencing Ukraine and then walking it back to USA-Russia relations. I think you’re either using a motte and Bailey fallacy or you’re so pro Russia you are discounting Ukraine as a state with agency. Feel free to prove me wrong by laying out a solid argument but right now everything you’ve posted seems like it’s not reliable
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I dont think there is anything disingenuous in prioritizing US-Russia relations more and US-Ukraine relations less. Ukraine has 100% agency, but that is independent of US support. The US has agency too. I hear this ignored a lot with respect to NATO. The US can unilaterally deny any country entry- all it takes is a vote - but people in this thread act like it is helpless and has no control over admittance.
  - lovich 3y ago
    Ok, well taking you at face value, Russia opposes us on a global stage and Ukraine is trying to align with us as an ally. Why the fuck would we not back up Ukraine against Russian in this situation then, other than for the fact that Russia is threatening massive damage to us? That is a reasonable enough question to pause on, but if Russia is threatening that for land gains in opposition to values we support(democracies) then we might as well roll over and show our bellies. We have a significantly stronger military and capitulating to their threats is a net negative to us in both the short and long term. If someone threatens to kill you unless they get everything they want, you either need to decide to live with them as your master or call their bluff