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The US are allies with Ukraine. If they don’t support them it sends a very serious message to Japan, Taiwan, Australia that it’s probably better to start siding

The US are allies with Ukraine. If they don’t support them it sends a very serious message to Japan, Taiwan, Australia that it’s probably better to start siding with the CCp ?

nikolay 3y ago
[flagged]
- bamboozled 3y ago
  When these authoritarians dictatorships come knocking on your door you might be paying with a lot more than your wallet. This isn’t social media, this is real. Read about history and what Russia did to Ukraine by way of famine (for an example of how bad things can get): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80...
  - nikolay 3y ago
    No chance! Stop fearmongering! If you do it, pay for it from your own pocket, not mine, and the hundreds of million struggling Americans!
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Ukraine never was a US ally and we have and had no obligation to help or support them. This is a far cry from countries like Japan and Australia where we have entered binding agreements and defense pacts. If anything,
- mmh0000 3y ago
  That's not entirely true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2011746/5-things-to-know-about-the-us-ukraine-defense-relationship/ https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/20...
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    The Budapest Memorandum is not an alliance or defense pact. It is an agreement that the US wont Invade or threaten Ukraine with nukes. If someone else is going nuclear with Ukraine, then the US agrees is obligated to ask the UN to step in. you have the link, you can read it.
    - type0 3y ago
      > then the US agrees is obligated to ask the UN to step in. No, UN has nothing to do with it and also point 2 talks about conventional weapons. If US is still interested in limiting nuclear proliferation there's no other way than helping Ukraine with military aid to regain it's territory. Otherwise Ukrainians will develop nukes and the risks for nuclear war in Europe will skyrocket in a decade or so. Ukraine has enough Uranium and enough expertise, everyone telling this will not happen is kidding themselves. They might not disclose it (like Israel) but they certainly have plans for it if they don't restore their borders. If the memorandum is void we're back at it before 1994, in my opinion they already have the right to restore their nukes since they haven't received sufficient support in the War.
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        read it for yourself. here is the origional (PDF page 169): https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/v3007.pdf https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/v... point 2 is that the US will not attack Ukraine (conventional or Nuclear). IT says nothing about defending them from others. Point 4 literally says the the US is obligated to seek UN security council action, verbatim. >the Russian federation, UK, and us reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate UN security council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non0nuclear weapon state party to the treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a thread of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used I dont know how we can have a reasonable conversation if we cant agree on what simple and clear sentences mean. the US has no obligations to defend them from conventional war, or ensure their safety. To be clear, It is obvious that Russia is violating the treaty parts 1 and 2 by disrespecting the boarder, and using conventional force against Ukraine.
- sterlind 3y ago
  Even though Ukraine isn't a NATO member, it's in NATO's interest to aid non-members. Article 5 is brittle - the smallest invasion of a member nation means calling a bluff on nuclear war. Ukraine stands between Russia and Article 5 - literally, in the case of Romania, Poland and Hungary. by making it extremely expensive for Russia to take Ukraine, it kept Russia from pressing its luck. So yes, we have no formal obligation to help Ukraine, but they're our ally - informally - because our interests align for strategic reasons.
- bamboozled 3y ago
  They're fighting a common enemy and maintain friendly relations, not sure what else you need to know ?

The US are allies with Ukraine. If they don’t support them it sends a very serious message to Japan, Taiwan, Australia that it’s probably better to start siding with the CCp ?

nikolay 3y ago

[flagged]

bamboozled 3y ago
When these authoritarians dictatorships come knocking on your door you might be paying with a lot more than your wallet. This isn’t social media, this is real. Read about history and what Russia did to Ukraine by way of famine (for an example of how bad things can get): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80...
- nikolay 3y ago
  No chance! Stop fearmongering! If you do it, pay for it from your own pocket, not mine, and the hundreds of million struggling Americans!

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Ukraine never was a US ally and we have and had no obligation to help or support them. This is a far cry from countries like Japan and Australia where we have entered binding agreements and defense pacts. If anything,

mmh0000 3y ago
That's not entirely true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2011746/5-things-to-know-about-the-us-ukraine-defense-relationship/ https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/20...
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  The Budapest Memorandum is not an alliance or defense pact. It is an agreement that the US wont Invade or threaten Ukraine with nukes. If someone else is going nuclear with Ukraine, then the US agrees is obligated to ask the UN to step in. you have the link, you can read it.
  - type0 3y ago
    > then the US agrees is obligated to ask the UN to step in. No, UN has nothing to do with it and also point 2 talks about conventional weapons. If US is still interested in limiting nuclear proliferation there's no other way than helping Ukraine with military aid to regain it's territory. Otherwise Ukrainians will develop nukes and the risks for nuclear war in Europe will skyrocket in a decade or so. Ukraine has enough Uranium and enough expertise, everyone telling this will not happen is kidding themselves. They might not disclose it (like Israel) but they certainly have plans for it if they don't restore their borders. If the memorandum is void we're back at it before 1994, in my opinion they already have the right to restore their nukes since they haven't received sufficient support in the War.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      read it for yourself. here is the origional (PDF page 169): https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/v3007.pdf https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/v... point 2 is that the US will not attack Ukraine (conventional or Nuclear). IT says nothing about defending them from others. Point 4 literally says the the US is obligated to seek UN security council action, verbatim. >the Russian federation, UK, and us reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate UN security council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non0nuclear weapon state party to the treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a thread of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used I dont know how we can have a reasonable conversation if we cant agree on what simple and clear sentences mean. the US has no obligations to defend them from conventional war, or ensure their safety. To be clear, It is obvious that Russia is violating the treaty parts 1 and 2 by disrespecting the boarder, and using conventional force against Ukraine.
sterlind 3y ago
Even though Ukraine isn't a NATO member, it's in NATO's interest to aid non-members. Article 5 is brittle - the smallest invasion of a member nation means calling a bluff on nuclear war. Ukraine stands between Russia and Article 5 - literally, in the case of Romania, Poland and Hungary. by making it extremely expensive for Russia to take Ukraine, it kept Russia from pressing its luck. So yes, we have no formal obligation to help Ukraine, but they're our ally - informally - because our interests align for strategic reasons.
bamboozled 3y ago
They're fighting a common enemy and maintain friendly relations, not sure what else you need to know ?