4 ms·

what about lowering our usage? or more efficiently use what we have, even if it means less growth for the economy.

by 4ggr0 3y ago

FredPret 3y ago
I don't think it's practical to lower or keep it at the same level. - what do we say to poor people? Sorry your life sucks, but the economy is big enough now? - even if we did say that, perish the thought, nobody's going to accept that. Africa, India, China, the rest of Asia, and South America have tons of poor people who want their turn. Why shouldn't they also get to be as rich as us? That implies a huge and growing demand for more and more energy and resources, regardless of what the US and Europe think of growth/degrowth/the environment. Therefore I think it's much better to instead accelerate, and do it using clean technologies. By building clean tech in rich countries, we can make it better and cheaper until it's the default option for rapidly growing poor nations. By demonstrating a commitment to growth, we also show them that our way is something to emulate, because growth is what they want and need. Degrowth is going to win you exactly zero friends in the poor world. Nations like Russia and China can easily go to Africa and make the West look like self-centered rich fools who should be ignored. If that happens, there goes your environmental ambitions.
- 4ggr0 3y ago
  > what do we say to poor people? Sorry your life sucks, but the economy is big enough now? we talk to rich people and tell them, "Sorry, but we've f*cked poor people long enough now, time to adjust downwards and meet in the middle."
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Nah mate, you’ve got to be realistic. No human will ever accept a downward adjustment. Plus, meeting in the middle is even less sustainable than the current situation. The options are: - Dramatically less (like prehistoric levels) - Dramatically more (star trek)
    - 4ggr0 3y ago
      What about Solarpunk[0]? That could almost be the middle between Pre-Historic and Star Trek. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solarpunk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solarpunk
      - jeffbee 3y ago
        Every happy person depicted in solarpunk artwork is the survivor of a mass casualty event and one of the few lucky people who aren't enslaved in manual labor colonies. That's the only way the solarpunk economy makes any sense.
        4ggr0 3y ago
        > Every happy person depicted in solarpunk artwork is the survivor of a mass casualty event Maybe ecological collapse after decades of growing the economy. After all, shareholder are worth more than humans :) > one of the few lucky people who aren't enslaved in manual labor Actually, we got quite a few of them, right now.
        jeffbee 3y ago
        True. I will give the Solarpunk people that much. Like Marx they have identified a real problem with society. Like Marx their proposed solution isn't going to work. In some respects it reminds me of this obscure, old web comic, in which the protagonists embark on their glorious future but forget to bring their inexhaustible labor robots. https://www.angryflower.com/348.html https://www.angryflower.com/348.html
        4ggr0 3y ago
        > Like Marx they have identified a real problem with society Ah, maybe that's why I like Solarpunk so much... > In some respects it reminds me of this obscure, old web comic which makes fun of the bourgeoisie who notice that they're not worth a lot without the proletariat ;)
  - xp84 3y ago
    The Plan: Convince Western countries, which are mostly some form of republic or a parliamentary system emulating one, to lower their citizens' living standards, in order to theoretically set a better example of resource usage for developing countries, who will 100% ignore this supposed role-modeling anyway because they actually want the best possible living standards, like most people do, and they have a point that even if we start limiting things now, we didn't artificially limit ourselves for the past 100 years, so why should they not get their turn at cheap growth? That's a pretty tricky plan. Just asking voters to accept even minor inconveniences like "Hey maybe let's not install indoor gas stoves in new construction going forward because they literally poison our indoor air" was met with fiery rage. Telling people they'll have to just consume a lot less plastic, fuel, etc. to leave more for developing countries is political suicide.
    - 4ggr0 3y ago
      look, i'm one guy on the internet, i will not be able to provide a global solution. but i think the current situation is not sustainable in the slightest. i try to act how i'd like people to act. i vote for or support things which matter to me. i can't change what China does, i can't really change what my country does. i can barely influence what my family and friends do. but i refuse to believe that "just grow the economy and gather more resources" is a viable path.

what about lowering our usage? or more efficiently use what we have, even if it means less growth for the economy.

by 4ggr0 3y ago

what about lowering our usage? or more efficiently use what we have, even if it means less growth for the economy.

I don't think it's practical to lower or keep it at the same level. - what do we say to poor people? Sorry your life sucks, but the economy is big enough now? - even if we did say that, perish the thought, nobody's going to accept that. Africa, India, China, the rest of Asia, and South America have tons of poor people who want their turn. Why shouldn't they also get to be as rich as us? That implies a huge and growing demand for more and more energy and resources, regardless of what the US and Europe think of growth/degrowth/the environment. Therefore I think it's much better to instead accelerate, and do it using clean technologies. By building clean tech in rich countries, we can make it better and cheaper until it's the default option for rapidly growing poor nations. By demonstrating a commitment to growth, we also show them that our way is something to emulate, because growth is what they want and need. Degrowth is going to win you exactly zero friends in the poor world. Nations like Russia and China can easily go to Africa and make the West look like self-centered rich fools who should be ignored. If that happens, there goes your environmental ambitions.

4ggr0 3y ago
> what do we say to poor people? Sorry your life sucks, but the economy is big enough now? we talk to rich people and tell them, "Sorry, but we've f*cked poor people long enough now, time to adjust downwards and meet in the middle."
- FredPret 3y ago
  Nah mate, you’ve got to be realistic. No human will ever accept a downward adjustment. Plus, meeting in the middle is even less sustainable than the current situation. The options are: - Dramatically less (like prehistoric levels) - Dramatically more (star trek)
  - 4ggr0 3y ago
    What about Solarpunk[0]? That could almost be the middle between Pre-Historic and Star Trek. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solarpunk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solarpunk
    - jeffbee 3y ago
      Every happy person depicted in solarpunk artwork is the survivor of a mass casualty event and one of the few lucky people who aren't enslaved in manual labor colonies. That's the only way the solarpunk economy makes any sense.
      - 4ggr0 3y ago
        > Every happy person depicted in solarpunk artwork is the survivor of a mass casualty event Maybe ecological collapse after decades of growing the economy. After all, shareholder are worth more than humans :) > one of the few lucky people who aren't enslaved in manual labor Actually, we got quite a few of them, right now.
        jeffbee 3y ago
        True. I will give the Solarpunk people that much. Like Marx they have identified a real problem with society. Like Marx their proposed solution isn't going to work. In some respects it reminds me of this obscure, old web comic, in which the protagonists embark on their glorious future but forget to bring their inexhaustible labor robots. https://www.angryflower.com/348.html https://www.angryflower.com/348.html
        4ggr0 3y ago
        > Like Marx they have identified a real problem with society Ah, maybe that's why I like Solarpunk so much... > In some respects it reminds me of this obscure, old web comic which makes fun of the bourgeoisie who notice that they're not worth a lot without the proletariat ;)
- xp84 3y ago
  The Plan: Convince Western countries, which are mostly some form of republic or a parliamentary system emulating one, to lower their citizens' living standards, in order to theoretically set a better example of resource usage for developing countries, who will 100% ignore this supposed role-modeling anyway because they actually want the best possible living standards, like most people do, and they have a point that even if we start limiting things now, we didn't artificially limit ourselves for the past 100 years, so why should they not get their turn at cheap growth? That's a pretty tricky plan. Just asking voters to accept even minor inconveniences like "Hey maybe let's not install indoor gas stoves in new construction going forward because they literally poison our indoor air" was met with fiery rage. Telling people they'll have to just consume a lot less plastic, fuel, etc. to leave more for developing countries is political suicide.
  - 4ggr0 3y ago
    look, i'm one guy on the internet, i will not be able to provide a global solution. but i think the current situation is not sustainable in the slightest. i try to act how i'd like people to act. i vote for or support things which matter to me. i can't change what China does, i can't really change what my country does. i can barely influence what my family and friends do. but i refuse to believe that "just grow the economy and gather more resources" is a viable path.