10 ms·

Ukraine forced to cut military operations as foreign aid dries up

49 points by intunderflow 3y ago

rthkljlkrj 3y ago
This is the weak aspect of democracies my friends. The enemy can put out propaganda, ignorant people will believe it, and representatives will vote in the interests of the enemy.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  Incredible totalitarian cope. The person who most presciently and effectively warned about the possibility of this situation was Donald Trump, a man who was democratically elected against the united wishes of the American and European establishment. He warned repeatedly that NATO allies were spending far too little on defence, leaving America to defend Europe in case of invasion. At the time he started saying this it was considered radically gauche and terrible by the western establishment, who rejected his whole position outright. They mocked and belittled him relentlessly. They even engaged in a massive conspiracy to try and convince the public Trump was literally working for the Russians. But that didn't matter because the USA is a democracy. He got was able to come from nowhere to being POTUS, where he then spent four years haranguing European leaders to spend more on defence against the country he was supposedly controlled by. Those leaders (mostly selected via far less direct mechanisms than Trump) reacted by giving the EU's most powerful position to a woman who was until that point primarily known for screwing up Germany's military. On her watch it became so degraded their troops turned up to NATO training exercises with broomsticks instead of guns [1]. A bigger "fuck you" to Trump and his warnings could not be imagined. Then a European country is invaded by Russia, and millions of refugees have flooded the continent. Trump's warnings don't look so gauche now. But still the European leadership refuses to respond. European arms factories lie idle awaiting orders, whilst the EU focuses on regulating the US tech economy. One might think they have bigger problems than that, or that maybe they should avoid directly attacking US interests given their perilous defence position, but the European political system is carefully set up to prevent people doing anything too dangerously democratic (like electing a Trump), so instead the appointee army fiddles whilst Ukraine burns. Now the inevitable is happening - the Americans are getting tired of funding a war far from their shores to defend a part of the world that seems to prefer banning US products to actually make shells and tanks. Who could see this coming? Only Trump, apparently. There's another twist to this story of democracy being smarter than non-democracy. During the Brexit campaign one of the (now mostly forgotten) campaigning points was that the EU wanted to develop an EU Army, which would duplicate and overlap with NATO in ways that made the latter largely ineffective. The UK was against such a proposal, recognizing that it was militarily nonsensical to try and defend Europe without the Americans, but the EU considered it a priority. Remain campaigners tried to do away with this issue by claiming plans for a non-NATO EU Army were "conspiracy theories" and a "dangerous fantasy that is simply not true" [2]. The lies here were all on the side of the undemocratic EU, because the creation of an EU Army was the very first topic of discussion at the very first EU leaders meeting after Brits voted to leave. Even with the UK and its objections out of the way though, they neither reinforced NATO nor built their own replacement. So what we see here is that the people often described as stooges of Russia, or anti-democratic in some way, were actually the people warning most strongly about the failed European approach to defending against Russian invasion. They saw it coming years in advance. This is really an excellent advert for democracy, but people who hate it for ideological reasons will never accept this. [1] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-sold... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26843996 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26843996
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- VincentEvans 3y ago
  When authoritarian regimes can outwait their democratically elected opponents while manipulating populist politics to achieve their desired outcomes - we need to face what will ultimately happen: condemn if not ourselves, then our children to much bigger war in not so distant futures.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
[flagged]
- bamboozled 3y ago
  The US are allies with Ukraine. If they don’t support them it sends a very serious message to Japan, Taiwan, Australia that it’s probably better to start siding with the CCp ?
  - nikolay 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - bamboozled 3y ago
      When these authoritarians dictatorships come knocking on your door you might be paying with a lot more than your wallet. This isn’t social media, this is real. Read about history and what Russia did to Ukraine by way of famine (for an example of how bad things can get): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80...
      - nikolay 3y ago
        No chance! Stop fearmongering! If you do it, pay for it from your own pocket, not mine, and the hundreds of million struggling Americans!
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Ukraine never was a US ally and we have and had no obligation to help or support them. This is a far cry from countries like Japan and Australia where we have entered binding agreements and defense pacts. If anything,
    - mmh0000 3y ago
      That's not entirely true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2011746/5-things-to-know-about-the-us-ukraine-defense-relationship/ https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/20...
nikolay 3y ago
[flagged]
- throwuxiytayq 3y ago
  Oh the peace is happening, just not the type you’d like to see. Maybe you should move back to Russia and verify your enthusiasm, boy.
  - nikolay 3y ago
    Assuming much? I'm not Russian, Mr. Profiler!
  - pests 3y ago
    Where I'm from calling someone "boy" is a racial epithet. Sounds so strange on HN.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
tiahura 3y ago
The US got great bang for the buck at the beginning of the war but diminishing marginal returns set in as soon as the spring offensive flopped. The warmongers who declare that Europe is at risk and we must keep throwing money away should be ignored. You don’t need a phd in Russian studies to understand that Putin rues the day he listened to his advisers. Can you imagine some KGB colonel going to Putin and saying “Let’s invade Lithuania”? One of Zelenskyy’s comedian buddies needs to tell him it’s time to negotiate.
- brnt 3y ago
  It's still bang for buck: Russian loss rates are increasing. But at any rate, it takes time to reduce stocks to zero.
- Detrytus 3y ago
  That was US plan all along: give Ukraine enough help so that they can continue the war, but not win. That's because Ukraine winning can have unpredictable effects on Russia internal affairs, including attempted coup, chaos, and someone accidentally launching nukes. Meanwhile, continued war drains Russian resources and keeps them occupied.
- duhast 3y ago
  Retaking of Kharkiv and Kherson is marginal diminishing returns?
hackandthink 3y ago
When victory is not possible, it is better to run out of ammunition than to run out of people. (does not apply when fighting Nazis)

49 points by intunderflow 3y ago

This is the weak aspect of democracies my friends. The enemy can put out propaganda, ignorant people will believe it, and representatives will vote in the interests of the enemy.

nvm0n2 3y ago
Incredible totalitarian cope. The person who most presciently and effectively warned about the possibility of this situation was Donald Trump, a man who was democratically elected against the united wishes of the American and European establishment. He warned repeatedly that NATO allies were spending far too little on defence, leaving America to defend Europe in case of invasion. At the time he started saying this it was considered radically gauche and terrible by the western establishment, who rejected his whole position outright. They mocked and belittled him relentlessly. They even engaged in a massive conspiracy to try and convince the public Trump was literally working for the Russians. But that didn't matter because the USA is a democracy. He got was able to come from nowhere to being POTUS, where he then spent four years haranguing European leaders to spend more on defence against the country he was supposedly controlled by. Those leaders (mostly selected via far less direct mechanisms than Trump) reacted by giving the EU's most powerful position to a woman who was until that point primarily known for screwing up Germany's military. On her watch it became so degraded their troops turned up to NATO training exercises with broomsticks instead of guns [1]. A bigger "fuck you" to Trump and his warnings could not be imagined. Then a European country is invaded by Russia, and millions of refugees have flooded the continent. Trump's warnings don't look so gauche now. But still the European leadership refuses to respond. European arms factories lie idle awaiting orders, whilst the EU focuses on regulating the US tech economy. One might think they have bigger problems than that, or that maybe they should avoid directly attacking US interests given their perilous defence position, but the European political system is carefully set up to prevent people doing anything too dangerously democratic (like electing a Trump), so instead the appointee army fiddles whilst Ukraine burns. Now the inevitable is happening - the Americans are getting tired of funding a war far from their shores to defend a part of the world that seems to prefer banning US products to actually make shells and tanks. Who could see this coming? Only Trump, apparently. There's another twist to this story of democracy being smarter than non-democracy. During the Brexit campaign one of the (now mostly forgotten) campaigning points was that the EU wanted to develop an EU Army, which would duplicate and overlap with NATO in ways that made the latter largely ineffective. The UK was against such a proposal, recognizing that it was militarily nonsensical to try and defend Europe without the Americans, but the EU considered it a priority. Remain campaigners tried to do away with this issue by claiming plans for a non-NATO EU Army were "conspiracy theories" and a "dangerous fantasy that is simply not true" [2]. The lies here were all on the side of the undemocratic EU, because the creation of an EU Army was the very first topic of discussion at the very first EU leaders meeting after Brits voted to leave. Even with the UK and its objections out of the way though, they neither reinforced NATO nor built their own replacement. So what we see here is that the people often described as stooges of Russia, or anti-democratic in some way, were actually the people warning most strongly about the failed European approach to defending against Russian invasion. They saw it coming years in advance. This is really an excellent advert for democracy, but people who hate it for ideological reasons will never accept this. [1] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-sold... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26843996 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26843996
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
VincentEvans 3y ago
When authoritarian regimes can outwait their democratically elected opponents while manipulating populist politics to achieve their desired outcomes - we need to face what will ultimately happen: condemn if not ourselves, then our children to much bigger war in not so distant futures.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

[flagged]

bamboozled 3y ago
The US are allies with Ukraine. If they don’t support them it sends a very serious message to Japan, Taiwan, Australia that it’s probably better to start siding with the CCp ?
- nikolay 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - bamboozled 3y ago
    When these authoritarians dictatorships come knocking on your door you might be paying with a lot more than your wallet. This isn’t social media, this is real. Read about history and what Russia did to Ukraine by way of famine (for an example of how bad things can get): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80...
    - nikolay 3y ago
      No chance! Stop fearmongering! If you do it, pay for it from your own pocket, not mine, and the hundreds of million struggling Americans!
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Ukraine never was a US ally and we have and had no obligation to help or support them. This is a far cry from countries like Japan and Australia where we have entered binding agreements and defense pacts. If anything,
  - mmh0000 3y ago
    That's not entirely true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2011746/5-things-to-know-about-the-us-ukraine-defense-relationship/ https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/20...

nikolay 3y ago

[flagged]

throwuxiytayq 3y ago
Oh the peace is happening, just not the type you’d like to see. Maybe you should move back to Russia and verify your enthusiasm, boy.
- nikolay 3y ago
  Assuming much? I'm not Russian, Mr. Profiler!
- pests 3y ago
  Where I'm from calling someone "boy" is a racial epithet. Sounds so strange on HN.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

tiahura 3y ago

The US got great bang for the buck at the beginning of the war but diminishing marginal returns set in as soon as the spring offensive flopped. The warmongers who declare that Europe is at risk and we must keep throwing money away should be ignored. You don’t need a phd in Russian studies to understand that Putin rues the day he listened to his advisers. Can you imagine some KGB colonel going to Putin and saying “Let’s invade Lithuania”? One of Zelenskyy’s comedian buddies needs to tell him it’s time to negotiate.

brnt 3y ago
It's still bang for buck: Russian loss rates are increasing. But at any rate, it takes time to reduce stocks to zero.
Detrytus 3y ago
That was US plan all along: give Ukraine enough help so that they can continue the war, but not win. That's because Ukraine winning can have unpredictable effects on Russia internal affairs, including attempted coup, chaos, and someone accidentally launching nukes. Meanwhile, continued war drains Russian resources and keeps them occupied.
duhast 3y ago
Retaking of Kharkiv and Kherson is marginal diminishing returns?

hackandthink 3y ago

When victory is not possible, it is better to run out of ammunition than to run out of people. (does not apply when fighting Nazis)