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It is not our war (I’m not Ukranian, nor Russian). I understand that it is bad and unacceptable that Putin does this and I also want to stop it, but not at all

It is not our war (I’m not Ukranian, nor Russian). I understand that it is bad and unacceptable that Putin does this and I also want to stop it, but not at all costs. To me enough lives were already lost and I don’t see how can we win. Maybe this is unacceptable to many people, but I prefer the interest of my own country, my family and friends. I’m open to help, but again, not at all costs. I don’t see how is it in our interest to be at war with Russia (I’m from Europe).

jnsaff2 3y ago
So aggression gets rewarded by handing them something they wanted. Do you really think that this is the end, this is all they wanted and from now on they are peaceful world citizens? Every time you hand something to aggressors you need to hand them more the next time. How many km between russia and the border of the country where you live? For me it's 0. You either help Ukraine now or be ready to fight yourself sometime in the future. It's like in the winter you are cold and you pee in your pants. It will be warm for a moment end then what?
- mdavid626 3y ago
  I don’t disagree, but what exactly means stopping Russia? How would you define what is “winning”? So, “that Russia doesn’t do that anymore”? Russia is a nuclear superpower, who can stop them? The NATO? But that’s 3WW.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    I don't get your question "who can stop them?" The Ukrainians have already done so, to a large degree. Nobody imagined Ukraine lasting more than a week of invasion, but they did so, and then retook large swathes of territory and forced the Russians into a defensive posture. The mistake the west made was not having confidence in the Ukrainians early on, and not supplying them with the tools early on and into last winter. We let Russia pull back and build intensive defensive lines that would be impossible to breach without air support. As for nuclear weapons... they are not tools to win wars. The first country to use a nuclear weapon as an offensive weapon will be turned to glass. It's just not a tool that even Putin is stupid enough to use. They don't make you a powerful offensive power, just a powerful defensive one. And nobody has ever suggested invading Russia, despite their paranoid claims to the contrary.
    - mdavid626 3y ago
      If the Ukranians already done so, why is there still war?
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    So your strategy is to not have kids and hope you die before the baddies come to rape you?
    - mdavid626 3y ago
      What are you talking about?
      - jnsaff2 3y ago
        Well you seem to scared of nuclear blackmail to the point of giving up. Not only that, you publicly advocate for not helping Ukraine and condemning tens of millions of people to horrors is russian oppression. So you are doing kremlins work exactly as they wish for. You seem to understand that should we not help Ukraine then they will not stop. They still have nukes to keep scaring you. What is your strategy?
        mdavid626 3y ago
        As I stated in my other comment, I don't think Russia would use nukes, only when their core existence is threatened. I'm not advocating to NOT to help Ukraine, I'm just trying to figure out what exactly is our plan. Which is still unclear. You and all others here have absolutely zero idea. I'm a very cautious person and before committing to sending more weapons, at least I'd like to know what is our strategy. How we're going to win? But of course, it's also an option to send as many weapons as we can without any further strategy and let as many Ukrainians die as can, without even understanding what winning means. This is somehow the only accepted solution currently. And if you don't like that, then you are pro Russian fallen for Russian propaganda.
        jnsaff2 3y ago
        It’s not hard to understand when a person is either fallen for russian propaganda or is an active troll.
ponector 3y ago
How Ukraine can win? With enough weapons and ammo from one side and with real sanctions from the other side. Last few years they receive some ammo, but just enough to not loose the battle. And sanctions are a joke. Russians are easily selling goods to EU, money easily flowing to Russia. There are backdoors for each sanctions. Don't see how it is in EU interest? If Russia will occupy Ukraine then they could invade EU states next. Estonia for example. There are already threats coming from Russian state TV. They are ready for war. And they don't care who to invade and kill: Nazi in Ukraine, Nazi in Estonia, Nazi in Poland etc. Call any nation a Nazi and there will be legions of Russian soldiers who are ready to kill everyone (including children and elderly people, they will rape, torture and kill everyone) for promise to get paid few thousand euros per months.
- mdavid626 3y ago
  Do you really think so? Ukraine received all the ammo in the world already, but they not really making progress anymore. How and what exactly will change in the upcoming future? I’m curious about concrete things, instead of just talking about that “they can not loose” etc. So far, the details are unclear to me. If Russia attacks the EU or NATO, then we’ll need our weapons to fight them. I think there is ZERO chance that they do that. As NATO is just simply more powerful and Russia is not stupid. It would be called the 3rd WW.
  - ponector 3y ago
    Few dozens of modern tanks, few dozens of short range missiles. A dozen of aircrafts made in USSR. Doesn't sound "all the ammo in the world" for me. Yes, they received a lot of close range defensive weapons, but almost nothing offensive. Regarding invasion to one country in NATO - why not? Other armies are extremely weak, with ammo depots for few weeks of active operation. And everybody are terrified to do any offensive because "crazy Russians have nukes and we need their oil and natural gas"
    - mdavid626 3y ago
      When a NATO country is invaded, the other countries in NATO will come and help out. Isn’t that how NATO works?
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
> To me enough lives were already lost That sounds like you want to decide for Ukraine whether it should fight on or not. That's not your place to decide. And if you're from Europe, you should know from history that appeasement does not actually bring you "peace in our time".
- mdavid626 3y ago
  I can’t decide about that they should fight or not, but I can decide about me wanting to support them with weapons or not.

jnsaff2 3y ago

So aggression gets rewarded by handing them something they wanted. Do you really think that this is the end, this is all they wanted and from now on they are peaceful world citizens? Every time you hand something to aggressors you need to hand them more the next time. How many km between russia and the border of the country where you live? For me it's 0. You either help Ukraine now or be ready to fight yourself sometime in the future. It's like in the winter you are cold and you pee in your pants. It will be warm for a moment end then what?

mdavid626 3y ago
I don’t disagree, but what exactly means stopping Russia? How would you define what is “winning”? So, “that Russia doesn’t do that anymore”? Russia is a nuclear superpower, who can stop them? The NATO? But that’s 3WW.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  I don't get your question "who can stop them?" The Ukrainians have already done so, to a large degree. Nobody imagined Ukraine lasting more than a week of invasion, but they did so, and then retook large swathes of territory and forced the Russians into a defensive posture. The mistake the west made was not having confidence in the Ukrainians early on, and not supplying them with the tools early on and into last winter. We let Russia pull back and build intensive defensive lines that would be impossible to breach without air support. As for nuclear weapons... they are not tools to win wars. The first country to use a nuclear weapon as an offensive weapon will be turned to glass. It's just not a tool that even Putin is stupid enough to use. They don't make you a powerful offensive power, just a powerful defensive one. And nobody has ever suggested invading Russia, despite their paranoid claims to the contrary.
  - mdavid626 3y ago
    If the Ukranians already done so, why is there still war?
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  So your strategy is to not have kids and hope you die before the baddies come to rape you?
  - mdavid626 3y ago
    What are you talking about?
    - jnsaff2 3y ago
      Well you seem to scared of nuclear blackmail to the point of giving up. Not only that, you publicly advocate for not helping Ukraine and condemning tens of millions of people to horrors is russian oppression. So you are doing kremlins work exactly as they wish for. You seem to understand that should we not help Ukraine then they will not stop. They still have nukes to keep scaring you. What is your strategy?
      - mdavid626 3y ago
        As I stated in my other comment, I don't think Russia would use nukes, only when their core existence is threatened. I'm not advocating to NOT to help Ukraine, I'm just trying to figure out what exactly is our plan. Which is still unclear. You and all others here have absolutely zero idea. I'm a very cautious person and before committing to sending more weapons, at least I'd like to know what is our strategy. How we're going to win? But of course, it's also an option to send as many weapons as we can without any further strategy and let as many Ukrainians die as can, without even understanding what winning means. This is somehow the only accepted solution currently. And if you don't like that, then you are pro Russian fallen for Russian propaganda.
        jnsaff2 3y ago
        It’s not hard to understand when a person is either fallen for russian propaganda or is an active troll.

ponector 3y ago

How Ukraine can win? With enough weapons and ammo from one side and with real sanctions from the other side. Last few years they receive some ammo, but just enough to not loose the battle. And sanctions are a joke. Russians are easily selling goods to EU, money easily flowing to Russia. There are backdoors for each sanctions. Don't see how it is in EU interest? If Russia will occupy Ukraine then they could invade EU states next. Estonia for example. There are already threats coming from Russian state TV. They are ready for war. And they don't care who to invade and kill: Nazi in Ukraine, Nazi in Estonia, Nazi in Poland etc. Call any nation a Nazi and there will be legions of Russian soldiers who are ready to kill everyone (including children and elderly people, they will rape, torture and kill everyone) for promise to get paid few thousand euros per months.

mdavid626 3y ago
Do you really think so? Ukraine received all the ammo in the world already, but they not really making progress anymore. How and what exactly will change in the upcoming future? I’m curious about concrete things, instead of just talking about that “they can not loose” etc. So far, the details are unclear to me. If Russia attacks the EU or NATO, then we’ll need our weapons to fight them. I think there is ZERO chance that they do that. As NATO is just simply more powerful and Russia is not stupid. It would be called the 3rd WW.
- ponector 3y ago
  Few dozens of modern tanks, few dozens of short range missiles. A dozen of aircrafts made in USSR. Doesn't sound "all the ammo in the world" for me. Yes, they received a lot of close range defensive weapons, but almost nothing offensive. Regarding invasion to one country in NATO - why not? Other armies are extremely weak, with ammo depots for few weeks of active operation. And everybody are terrified to do any offensive because "crazy Russians have nukes and we need their oil and natural gas"
  - mdavid626 3y ago
    When a NATO country is invaded, the other countries in NATO will come and help out. Isn’t that how NATO works?

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

> To me enough lives were already lost That sounds like you want to decide for Ukraine whether it should fight on or not. That's not your place to decide. And if you're from Europe, you should know from history that appeasement does not actually bring you "peace in our time".

mdavid626 3y ago
I can’t decide about that they should fight or not, but I can decide about me wanting to support them with weapons or not.