3 ms·
Nobody is stopping you from having your opinion, or voicing it, so stop blathering like you're being censored. Your privilege is showing -- or are you just use
by cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Nobody is stopping you from having your opinion, or voicing it, so stop blathering like you're being censored.
Your privilege is showing -- or are you just used to being agreed with and getting your way?
As for the cost -- the expense is human lives and untold misery. Which is the unacceptable cost of every war. Which is why bullies use it as a tool, in hopes that their foe will submit because the cost is unbearable.
It's brutally unpalatable and inhumane to continue with war. But the alternative is worse.
BTW last week Putin made it clear that no "peace" at the current borders will be permitted and that their original goals remain, which is (at a minimum) the merge into Russia of all the Kharkiv, Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts, the elimination of the gov't in Ukraine (and presumably its replacement with a puppet regime), and no EU membership and certainly no NATO protection.
So basically 1/2 the territory of Ukraine, including its most productive agricultural and industrial lands, the bulk of its Black Sea coastline, and it become a client state.
That's peace?
- mdavid626 3y agoIt is not our war (I’m not Ukranian, nor Russian). I understand that it is bad and unacceptable that Putin does this and I also want to stop it, but not at all costs. To me enough lives were already lost and I don’t see how can we win. Maybe this is unacceptable to many people, but I prefer the interest of my own country, my family and friends. I’m open to help, but again, not at all costs. I don’t see how is it in our interest to be at war with Russia (I’m from Europe).
- jnsaff2 3y agoSo aggression gets rewarded by handing them something they wanted. Do you really think that this is the end, this is all they wanted and from now on they are peaceful world citizens? Every time you hand something to aggressors you need to hand them more the next time. How many km between russia and the border of the country where you live? For me it's 0. You either help Ukraine now or be ready to fight yourself sometime in the future. It's like in the winter you are cold and you pee in your pants. It will be warm for a moment end then what?
- mdavid626 3y agoI don’t disagree, but what exactly means stopping Russia? How would you define what is “winning”? So, “that Russia doesn’t do that anymore”? Russia is a nuclear superpower, who can stop them? The NATO? But that’s 3WW.
- cmrdporcupine 3y agoI don't get your question "who can stop them?" The Ukrainians have already done so, to a large degree. Nobody imagined Ukraine lasting more than a week of invasion, but they did so, and then retook large swathes of territory and forced the Russians into a defensive posture. The mistake the west made was not having confidence in the Ukrainians early on, and not supplying them with the tools early on and into last winter. We let Russia pull back and build intensive defensive lines that would be impossible to breach without air support. As for nuclear weapons... they are not tools to win wars. The first country to use a nuclear weapon as an offensive weapon will be turned to glass. It's just not a tool that even Putin is stupid enough to use. They don't make you a powerful offensive power, just a powerful defensive one. And nobody has ever suggested invading Russia, despite their paranoid claims to the contrary.
- mdavid626 3y agoIf the Ukranians already done so, why is there still war?
- jnsaff2 3y agoSo your strategy is to not have kids and hope you die before the baddies come to rape you?
- ponector 3y agoHow Ukraine can win? With enough weapons and ammo from one side and with real sanctions from the other side. Last few years they receive some ammo, but just enough to not loose the battle. And sanctions are a joke. Russians are easily selling goods to EU, money easily flowing to Russia. There are backdoors for each sanctions. Don't see how it is in EU interest? If Russia will occupy Ukraine then they could invade EU states next. Estonia for example. There are already threats coming from Russian state TV. They are ready for war. And they don't care who to invade and kill: Nazi in Ukraine, Nazi in Estonia, Nazi in Poland etc. Call any nation a Nazi and there will be legions of Russian soldiers who are ready to kill everyone (including children and elderly people, they will rape, torture and kill everyone) for promise to get paid few thousand euros per months.
- mdavid626 3y agoDo you really think so? Ukraine received all the ammo in the world already, but they not really making progress anymore. How and what exactly will change in the upcoming future? I’m curious about concrete things, instead of just talking about that “they can not loose” etc. So far, the details are unclear to me. If Russia attacks the EU or NATO, then we’ll need our weapons to fight them. I think there is ZERO chance that they do that. As NATO is just simply more powerful and Russia is not stupid. It would be called the 3rd WW.
- ponector 3y agoFew dozens of modern tanks, few dozens of short range missiles. A dozen of aircrafts made in USSR. Doesn't sound "all the ammo in the world" for me. Yes, they received a lot of close range defensive weapons, but almost nothing offensive. Regarding invasion to one country in NATO - why not? Other armies are extremely weak, with ammo depots for few weeks of active operation. And everybody are terrified to do any offensive because "crazy Russians have nukes and we need their oil and natural gas"
- mdavid626 3y agoWhen a NATO country is invaded, the other countries in NATO will come and help out. Isn’t that how NATO works?
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago> To me enough lives were already lost That sounds like you want to decide for Ukraine whether it should fight on or not. That's not your place to decide. And if you're from Europe, you should know from history that appeasement does not actually bring you "peace in our time".
- mdavid626 3y agoI can’t decide about that they should fight or not, but I can decide about me wanting to support them with weapons or not.