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This is exactly what the problem is. If you don’t agree with the mainstream “save Ukraine” mantra, then you “fell for Russian propaganda”. The only accepted opi

This is exactly what the problem is. If you don’t agree with the mainstream “save Ukraine” mantra, then you “fell for Russian propaganda”. The only accepted opinion is to fight at all costs. Nothing else is accepted. How is this democratic? I’m not for Russia, nor against, but don’t support of killing even more people. If there would be freedom of speech, then you could discuss this openly and publicly. I believe in Russia you can also post on the internet, at least anonymously. There is the right way (pro Ukraine) and the wrong way. Why? So, how exactly will Ukraine win this war? And at what cost? How would Russia accept losing? I believe you don’t have an answer.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Nobody is stopping you from having your opinion, or voicing it, so stop blathering like you're being censored. Your privilege is showing -- or are you just used to being agreed with and getting your way? As for the cost -- the expense is human lives and untold misery. Which is the unacceptable cost of every war. Which is why bullies use it as a tool, in hopes that their foe will submit because the cost is unbearable. It's brutally unpalatable and inhumane to continue with war. But the alternative is worse. BTW last week Putin made it clear that no "peace" at the current borders will be permitted and that their original goals remain, which is (at a minimum) the merge into Russia of all the Kharkiv, Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts, the elimination of the gov't in Ukraine (and presumably its replacement with a puppet regime), and no EU membership and certainly no NATO protection. So basically 1/2 the territory of Ukraine, including its most productive agricultural and industrial lands, the bulk of its Black Sea coastline, and it become a client state. That's peace?
- mdavid626 3y ago
  It is not our war (I’m not Ukranian, nor Russian). I understand that it is bad and unacceptable that Putin does this and I also want to stop it, but not at all costs. To me enough lives were already lost and I don’t see how can we win. Maybe this is unacceptable to many people, but I prefer the interest of my own country, my family and friends. I’m open to help, but again, not at all costs. I don’t see how is it in our interest to be at war with Russia (I’m from Europe).
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    So aggression gets rewarded by handing them something they wanted. Do you really think that this is the end, this is all they wanted and from now on they are peaceful world citizens? Every time you hand something to aggressors you need to hand them more the next time. How many km between russia and the border of the country where you live? For me it's 0. You either help Ukraine now or be ready to fight yourself sometime in the future. It's like in the winter you are cold and you pee in your pants. It will be warm for a moment end then what?
    - mdavid626 3y ago
      I don’t disagree, but what exactly means stopping Russia? How would you define what is “winning”? So, “that Russia doesn’t do that anymore”? Russia is a nuclear superpower, who can stop them? The NATO? But that’s 3WW.
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        I don't get your question "who can stop them?" The Ukrainians have already done so, to a large degree. Nobody imagined Ukraine lasting more than a week of invasion, but they did so, and then retook large swathes of territory and forced the Russians into a defensive posture. The mistake the west made was not having confidence in the Ukrainians early on, and not supplying them with the tools early on and into last winter. We let Russia pull back and build intensive defensive lines that would be impossible to breach without air support. As for nuclear weapons... they are not tools to win wars. The first country to use a nuclear weapon as an offensive weapon will be turned to glass. It's just not a tool that even Putin is stupid enough to use. They don't make you a powerful offensive power, just a powerful defensive one. And nobody has ever suggested invading Russia, despite their paranoid claims to the contrary.
        mdavid626 3y ago
        If the Ukranians already done so, why is there still war?
      - 3y ago

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

Nobody is stopping you from having your opinion, or voicing it, so stop blathering like you're being censored. Your privilege is showing -- or are you just used to being agreed with and getting your way? As for the cost -- the expense is human lives and untold misery. Which is the unacceptable cost of every war. Which is why bullies use it as a tool, in hopes that their foe will submit because the cost is unbearable. It's brutally unpalatable and inhumane to continue with war. But the alternative is worse. BTW last week Putin made it clear that no "peace" at the current borders will be permitted and that their original goals remain, which is (at a minimum) the merge into Russia of all the Kharkiv, Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts, the elimination of the gov't in Ukraine (and presumably its replacement with a puppet regime), and no EU membership and certainly no NATO protection. So basically 1/2 the territory of Ukraine, including its most productive agricultural and industrial lands, the bulk of its Black Sea coastline, and it become a client state. That's peace?

mdavid626 3y ago
It is not our war (I’m not Ukranian, nor Russian). I understand that it is bad and unacceptable that Putin does this and I also want to stop it, but not at all costs. To me enough lives were already lost and I don’t see how can we win. Maybe this is unacceptable to many people, but I prefer the interest of my own country, my family and friends. I’m open to help, but again, not at all costs. I don’t see how is it in our interest to be at war with Russia (I’m from Europe).
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  So aggression gets rewarded by handing them something they wanted. Do you really think that this is the end, this is all they wanted and from now on they are peaceful world citizens? Every time you hand something to aggressors you need to hand them more the next time. How many km between russia and the border of the country where you live? For me it's 0. You either help Ukraine now or be ready to fight yourself sometime in the future. It's like in the winter you are cold and you pee in your pants. It will be warm for a moment end then what?
  - mdavid626 3y ago
    I don’t disagree, but what exactly means stopping Russia? How would you define what is “winning”? So, “that Russia doesn’t do that anymore”? Russia is a nuclear superpower, who can stop them? The NATO? But that’s 3WW.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      I don't get your question "who can stop them?" The Ukrainians have already done so, to a large degree. Nobody imagined Ukraine lasting more than a week of invasion, but they did so, and then retook large swathes of territory and forced the Russians into a defensive posture. The mistake the west made was not having confidence in the Ukrainians early on, and not supplying them with the tools early on and into last winter. We let Russia pull back and build intensive defensive lines that would be impossible to breach without air support. As for nuclear weapons... they are not tools to win wars. The first country to use a nuclear weapon as an offensive weapon will be turned to glass. It's just not a tool that even Putin is stupid enough to use. They don't make you a powerful offensive power, just a powerful defensive one. And nobody has ever suggested invading Russia, despite their paranoid claims to the contrary.
      - mdavid626 3y ago
        If the Ukranians already done so, why is there still war?
    - 3y ago