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Brave figured this out long ago with their BAT system IMO. Basically automated micropayments for content consumption (I mean, Basic Attention Token, what's in a

by jorvi 3y ago

Brave figured this out long ago with their BAT system IMO. Basically automated micropayments for content consumption (I mean, Basic Attention Token, what's in a name). You can either buy BAT directly or watch private-by-default ads, which takes away one of the biggest ethical qualms one can have with adblocking too. I know that HN has a prety small but ultra-vocal minority that will hate on Brave any chance they get, so expect a lot of disparaging comments.

danpalmer 3y ago
I do have a problem with the Brave/BAT system here, because it lacks consent from the creators. Brave show the user ads and grants them BAT, the user "gives" the BAT to the creator, and almost all creators won't know about this so it's in a black hole (controlled by Brave?). If I were a creator I'm not sure I'd like that, specifically not being able to opt-out at all(?) or at least not without signing up and giving my details.
- rglullis 3y ago
  The BAT only leaves the user wallet if the creators joins the program. There is no black hole.
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    Ah good, that's better than Flattr and previous attempts at this then. Does this mean that if none of the creators you support accept BAT then you aren't paying anything? Does it mean that if just one of them accepts it then you're paying all of your BAT to them? What if you mostly watch YouTube channels of people who wouldn't be onboard with it, but get linked one video by someone you don't like but they do accept it, do they get all your BAT that month? Perhaps there are good answers to all of this, but getting it right sounds tricky!
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      See my other comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38685162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38685162 It's impossible for many creators to actually benefit from the program (but this isn't straightforward when they sign up, which does in fact leave a black hole)
      - jorvi 3y ago
        You can trade BAT on Coinbase, Binance and Kraken. Probably a lot of smaller exchanges as well, those just seemed like the most logical one's to check. So much for a black hole.
        pcthrowaway 3y ago
        So you pay $20-30 to send your BAT on Ethereum to your exchange, where you then pay additional trade and withdrawal fees. You must be making a lot of BAT for this to even be worth it. I haven't seen anyone on https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject report making more than ~$10/month, and the overwhelming majority just make anywhere from $0.20 - $5/month. So maybe in two years it's going to be worthwhile for them to go through the withdrawal steps. In the meantime they technically have to report their BAT distributions as earnings against their income (so they pay taxes for them). Then track the average cost basis til the time of their eventual disposal. In many countries, the network fees, trading fees, and withdrawal fees won't be deductible unless they're filing as a business. So they may even lose money throughout the process when you take additional taxes into account. And either way it's a tax headache, and you risk opening yourself up to penalties if you file improperly, or paying an accountant extra to sort through everything for you.
    - jorvi 3y ago
      > Does this mean that if none of the creators you support accept BAT then you aren't paying anything? Creator's can't really opt out of BAT afaik, Brave will just hold the BAT in escrow until they make an account. Brave itself doesn't really benefit. Maybe from a value increase in BAT? I'm not entirely certain how much they seeded to themselves, but I can't imagine much if at all because of the optics. Whilst it is not ideal, you have to remember that this is a three-step from a previous situation: 1. No one has adblock, security and privacy are deeply compromised 2. 'Everyone' has adblock, ads are blocked, creators make no money 3. Some users start to use BAT, those users now actually pay for content again
JohnFen 3y ago
Not hating on Brave at all, but if it's related to cryptocurrency/blockchain, I'm not touching it.

by jorvi 3y ago

danpalmer 3y ago

I do have a problem with the Brave/BAT system here, because it lacks consent from the creators. Brave show the user ads and grants them BAT, the user "gives" the BAT to the creator, and almost all creators won't know about this so it's in a black hole (controlled by Brave?). If I were a creator I'm not sure I'd like that, specifically not being able to opt-out at all(?) or at least not without signing up and giving my details.

rglullis 3y ago
The BAT only leaves the user wallet if the creators joins the program. There is no black hole.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  Ah good, that's better than Flattr and previous attempts at this then. Does this mean that if none of the creators you support accept BAT then you aren't paying anything? Does it mean that if just one of them accepts it then you're paying all of your BAT to them? What if you mostly watch YouTube channels of people who wouldn't be onboard with it, but get linked one video by someone you don't like but they do accept it, do they get all your BAT that month? Perhaps there are good answers to all of this, but getting it right sounds tricky!
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    See my other comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38685162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38685162 It's impossible for many creators to actually benefit from the program (but this isn't straightforward when they sign up, which does in fact leave a black hole)
    - jorvi 3y ago
      You can trade BAT on Coinbase, Binance and Kraken. Probably a lot of smaller exchanges as well, those just seemed like the most logical one's to check. So much for a black hole.
      - pcthrowaway 3y ago
        So you pay $20-30 to send your BAT on Ethereum to your exchange, where you then pay additional trade and withdrawal fees. You must be making a lot of BAT for this to even be worth it. I haven't seen anyone on https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject report making more than ~$10/month, and the overwhelming majority just make anywhere from $0.20 - $5/month. So maybe in two years it's going to be worthwhile for them to go through the withdrawal steps. In the meantime they technically have to report their BAT distributions as earnings against their income (so they pay taxes for them). Then track the average cost basis til the time of their eventual disposal. In many countries, the network fees, trading fees, and withdrawal fees won't be deductible unless they're filing as a business. So they may even lose money throughout the process when you take additional taxes into account. And either way it's a tax headache, and you risk opening yourself up to penalties if you file improperly, or paying an accountant extra to sort through everything for you.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    > Does this mean that if none of the creators you support accept BAT then you aren't paying anything? Creator's can't really opt out of BAT afaik, Brave will just hold the BAT in escrow until they make an account. Brave itself doesn't really benefit. Maybe from a value increase in BAT? I'm not entirely certain how much they seeded to themselves, but I can't imagine much if at all because of the optics. Whilst it is not ideal, you have to remember that this is a three-step from a previous situation: 1. No one has adblock, security and privacy are deeply compromised 2. 'Everyone' has adblock, ads are blocked, creators make no money 3. Some users start to use BAT, those users now actually pay for content again

JohnFen 3y ago

Not hating on Brave at all, but if it's related to cryptocurrency/blockchain, I'm not touching it.