3 ms·

Bad analogy. Verizon's network is federated with all other telephony networks. iMessage does not federate.

overstay8930 3y ago
Verizon's network is as federated as iMessage, as in not at all. You can't just use Verizon for free, you pay for access through an authorized vendor or through Verizon themselves. Just because something is accessible does not implicitly grant authorization, there are hundreds of court cases that have set that precedent (this is why you DON'T need an MOTD auth warning anymore). Not only is Beeper doing that, they're also profiting from their abuse. This is more than enough to be a major violation of the CFAA and this is probably what the DOJ is investigating.
- colanderman 3y ago
  I don't follow your argument. Verizon's network is federated with AT&T, T-Mobile, Sprint, whomever. Messages can be routed freely between those networks unadulterated. That is what federation means. To communicate via iMessage you must use Apple's servers. There are no other servers which can accept iMessage messages and forward them back and forth with Apple's server. (Only in a lossy manner, via MMS.) It is not a federated protocol. Federation promotes competition. Preventing 3rd party access by any mechanism stifles competition. If iMessage were federated, as in, Beeper could host their own servers which federate with Apple's, I think more of us would side with Apple here.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Don't all Verizon sim cards, by definition, rely on Verizon's servers? How can they be federated? i.e. If every last Verizon server is shut down then they become small plastic bricks. It wouldn't matter how many agreements have been signed with AT&T, T-mobile, etc...
    - ImJamal 3y ago
      It is federated in the same way matrix or mastodon are. You join a server and it can talk to other servers. If the server you are on shuts down you won't be able to login and make posts no matter how many agreements have been signed between different servers. It also uses the hardware of the server you are on. You could even start your own carrier just like you could set up your own Mastodon server. Of course there would be far more regulations, but it is technically possible.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        It's clearly not as procuring another SIM card from another carrier requires actual effort and money that is by no means guaranteed to be available for everyone. (And in some countries there is an ID check or other legal obligations/contracts must be signed.) And even then the new SIM card still won't allow the phone to connect with any of the proprietary cellular towers and antennas for normal usage, only emergency situations. This is not federated in any sense.
        ImJamal 3y ago
        >It's clearly not as procuring another SIM card from another carrier requires actual effort and money that is by no means guaranteed to be available for everyone Setting up an email/mastodon/matrix server requires effort and money. You either need to self host which requires a local internet connection, electricity, and ideally a static IP none of which are guarantee. If you host at a hosting company it costs money. >(And in some countries there is an ID check or other legal obligations/contracts must be signed.) Hetzner and other hosting companies require IDs as well. I wouldn't be surprised if in some countries you have to have an ID to get internet. >And even then the new SIM card still won't allow the phone to connect with any of the proprietary cellular towers and antennas for normal usage, only emergency situations. A mastodon server won't connect with a proprietary protocol so it seems like it is the same boat? It won't even connect in emergency situations! >This is not federated in any sense. Seems exactly the same. There are just far more gatekeepers when it comes to carriers.
pxmpxm 3y ago
In what way is that even remotely relevant?
- NewJazz 3y ago
  In a highly practical and real-world way.

Verizon's network is as federated as iMessage, as in not at all. You can't just use Verizon for free, you pay for access through an authorized vendor or through Verizon themselves. Just because something is accessible does not implicitly grant authorization, there are hundreds of court cases that have set that precedent (this is why you DON'T need an MOTD auth warning anymore). Not only is Beeper doing that, they're also profiting from their abuse. This is more than enough to be a major violation of the CFAA and this is probably what the DOJ is investigating.

colanderman 3y ago
I don't follow your argument. Verizon's network is federated with AT&T, T-Mobile, Sprint, whomever. Messages can be routed freely between those networks unadulterated. That is what federation means. To communicate via iMessage you must use Apple's servers. There are no other servers which can accept iMessage messages and forward them back and forth with Apple's server. (Only in a lossy manner, via MMS.) It is not a federated protocol. Federation promotes competition. Preventing 3rd party access by any mechanism stifles competition. If iMessage were federated, as in, Beeper could host their own servers which federate with Apple's, I think more of us would side with Apple here.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  Don't all Verizon sim cards, by definition, rely on Verizon's servers? How can they be federated? i.e. If every last Verizon server is shut down then they become small plastic bricks. It wouldn't matter how many agreements have been signed with AT&T, T-mobile, etc...
  - ImJamal 3y ago
    It is federated in the same way matrix or mastodon are. You join a server and it can talk to other servers. If the server you are on shuts down you won't be able to login and make posts no matter how many agreements have been signed between different servers. It also uses the hardware of the server you are on. You could even start your own carrier just like you could set up your own Mastodon server. Of course there would be far more regulations, but it is technically possible.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      It's clearly not as procuring another SIM card from another carrier requires actual effort and money that is by no means guaranteed to be available for everyone. (And in some countries there is an ID check or other legal obligations/contracts must be signed.) And even then the new SIM card still won't allow the phone to connect with any of the proprietary cellular towers and antennas for normal usage, only emergency situations. This is not federated in any sense.
      - ImJamal 3y ago
        >It's clearly not as procuring another SIM card from another carrier requires actual effort and money that is by no means guaranteed to be available for everyone Setting up an email/mastodon/matrix server requires effort and money. You either need to self host which requires a local internet connection, electricity, and ideally a static IP none of which are guarantee. If you host at a hosting company it costs money. >(And in some countries there is an ID check or other legal obligations/contracts must be signed.) Hetzner and other hosting companies require IDs as well. I wouldn't be surprised if in some countries you have to have an ID to get internet. >And even then the new SIM card still won't allow the phone to connect with any of the proprietary cellular towers and antennas for normal usage, only emergency situations. A mastodon server won't connect with a proprietary protocol so it seems like it is the same boat? It won't even connect in emergency situations! >This is not federated in any sense. Seems exactly the same. There are just far more gatekeepers when it comes to carriers.

pxmpxm 3y ago

In what way is that even remotely relevant?

NewJazz 3y ago
In a highly practical and real-world way.