6 ms·

For once, I'm proud to be a customer of a company that is willing to stand up against monopolies.

leokennis 3y ago
How is iMessage a monopoly? I would like open communications standards as much as the next guy, but next to iMessage there are WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, WeChat, Facebook Messenger etc. etc. And as far as I know, you have to use the official WhatsApp app to chat on WhatsApp, same for Telegram, etc. etc. So apart from iMessage not being a monopoly, they are also not more restrictive than their competition. So besides not matching with our "open" ideology for communication, what exactly has Apple done wrong here?
- joshmanders 3y ago
  Apparently since Apple made it more convenient to iPhone users to not only message other iPhone users from iMessage, but also receive their text messages in that single app too, it's a monopoly?
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    That probably didn't help things but I think the root cause comes down to the usual source of monopolies in this case: having vertical integration and a default app. Technically you don't even need an iPhone or SMS service to use iMessage. It is by the most common use case though, and one which increased the amount of integration a bit.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  You do not want open communication standards as much as the next guy. You’re advocating for a closed communication standard.
- SamBorick 3y ago
  My view is that all of those messaging platforms blocking alternative clients are equally problematic. I've arrived at this position because I'm not able to use any of those platforms because they don't provide accessibility tools that I need. Beeper does, and most matrix clients do also. I recognize that the open source "everything should be open" view is not remotely mainstream, but the only way forward is to demand better.
  - joshmanders 3y ago
    Demand better, unauthorized usage of other peoples systems has long been considered bad practice. We have movies about this stuff.
    - zamadatix 3y ago
      We have best practices and movies about having too little control of other people's systems too. If law, morality, and debate only required finding whether there was a negative outcome they would be trivial. Unfortunately that doesn't yield practical results. Things need to be weighed and debated on a larger scale. Throwing in my perspective: I largely agree with the DMA and think while iMessage was found not to be popular enough to qualify in Europe we should have something similar in place in the US and it certainly has enough penetration here to qualify under the same wording. I.e. I think we need something between "free rein" and "monopoly" for very large players which has practical effects on how you're required to interop.
- tobias2014 3y ago
  Definitely not true for Telegram, they are completely open about the client side infrastructure: https://telegram.org/apps https://telegram.org/apps (and there are dozens of third party clients, some even linked on their official website)
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    Telegram does have some weird restrictions on third-party clients -- in particular, you'll get blocked if you try to create an account or perform certain other operations using an unofficial client. But generally, yes.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  > How is iMessage a monopoly? I would like open communications standards as much as the next guy, but next to iMessage there are WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, WeChat, Facebook Messenger etc. etc. Because it's the replacement for SMS for Apple phones and doesn't require an account in the same way those other services do. It just uses the Apple account iPhone owners already need to have.
  - frumper 3y ago
    You don't actually need an account to use an iPhone. You can also use SMS without iMessage.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      > You don't actually need an account to use an iPhone. Really? It's never insisted upon for any core service? > You can also use SMS without iMessage. But most people don't because it's the default. MS was found to have a monopoly with IE even though there were alternatives.
      - joshmanders 3y ago
        > But most people don't because it's the default. MS was found to have a monopoly with IE even though there were alternatives. Windows also was the dominant operating system with a market share in the 90% or higher. iOS isn't even the market leader in the US let alone the world, so can't really be a monopoly now can it?
        PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        > iOS isn't even the market leader in the US How can that not be true if most people in the US use an iPhone as their phone?
        joshmanders 3y ago
        iPhone and Samsung combined make up almost 80% of smart phone market share in the US. Being as Statistia is a premium thing I can't get accurate numbers, but lets say splitting 50/50 because if it was anything with any serious gap, they wouldn't group them the same. I'd assume they're high 40's and low 50's split between the two, so means iPhone is ~40%, now I ain't no math magician or anything but that leaves ~60% for non-iPhone devices.
- 3836293648 3y ago
  Apples only escape here is that they're only popular in America. Whatsapp, Facebook messenger etc have to open up in the coming months because it's illegal in Europe. Apple should open up too, just like they have to with the App Store (because that is big enough to count as a gatekeeper)
overstay8930 3y ago
Here's how a monopoly hearing would work against iMessage: Apple: We do not restrict who you can talk to on iPhone Prosecutor: but the bubble is green and my friends won't talk to me :(
- wraptile 3y ago
  So if your ISP like AOL makes all of their webpages nice and fast but competitors slower and uglier artificially then is AOL abusing their market position here? We already set the precedent here that this is market abuse. This new case is no different. Also, Apple knows this. They know they'd lose that's why they are already ahead of this by announcing adoption of RCS in 2024. How can anyone presume that Apple would stand some sort of ideological ground here? We literally have emails where Apple c-suits say that iMessages mistreating android benefits them and they don't want to fix this. This is such a clear case I don't understand how anyone can defend this.
  - bitwidget 3y ago
    I don't see how Apple is making Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Telegram, Signal, slower and uglier.

How is iMessage a monopoly? I would like open communications standards as much as the next guy, but next to iMessage there are WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, WeChat, Facebook Messenger etc. etc. And as far as I know, you have to use the official WhatsApp app to chat on WhatsApp, same for Telegram, etc. etc. So apart from iMessage not being a monopoly, they are also not more restrictive than their competition. So besides not matching with our "open" ideology for communication, what exactly has Apple done wrong here?

joshmanders 3y ago
Apparently since Apple made it more convenient to iPhone users to not only message other iPhone users from iMessage, but also receive their text messages in that single app too, it's a monopoly?
- zamadatix 3y ago
  That probably didn't help things but I think the root cause comes down to the usual source of monopolies in this case: having vertical integration and a default app. Technically you don't even need an iPhone or SMS service to use iMessage. It is by the most common use case though, and one which increased the amount of integration a bit.
jncfhnb 3y ago
You do not want open communication standards as much as the next guy. You’re advocating for a closed communication standard.
SamBorick 3y ago
My view is that all of those messaging platforms blocking alternative clients are equally problematic. I've arrived at this position because I'm not able to use any of those platforms because they don't provide accessibility tools that I need. Beeper does, and most matrix clients do also. I recognize that the open source "everything should be open" view is not remotely mainstream, but the only way forward is to demand better.
- joshmanders 3y ago
  Demand better, unauthorized usage of other peoples systems has long been considered bad practice. We have movies about this stuff.
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    We have best practices and movies about having too little control of other people's systems too. If law, morality, and debate only required finding whether there was a negative outcome they would be trivial. Unfortunately that doesn't yield practical results. Things need to be weighed and debated on a larger scale. Throwing in my perspective: I largely agree with the DMA and think while iMessage was found not to be popular enough to qualify in Europe we should have something similar in place in the US and it certainly has enough penetration here to qualify under the same wording. I.e. I think we need something between "free rein" and "monopoly" for very large players which has practical effects on how you're required to interop.
tobias2014 3y ago
Definitely not true for Telegram, they are completely open about the client side infrastructure: https://telegram.org/apps https://telegram.org/apps (and there are dozens of third party clients, some even linked on their official website)
- duskwuff 3y ago
  Telegram does have some weird restrictions on third-party clients -- in particular, you'll get blocked if you try to create an account or perform certain other operations using an unofficial client. But generally, yes.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
> How is iMessage a monopoly? I would like open communications standards as much as the next guy, but next to iMessage there are WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, WeChat, Facebook Messenger etc. etc. Because it's the replacement for SMS for Apple phones and doesn't require an account in the same way those other services do. It just uses the Apple account iPhone owners already need to have.
- frumper 3y ago
  You don't actually need an account to use an iPhone. You can also use SMS without iMessage.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    > You don't actually need an account to use an iPhone. Really? It's never insisted upon for any core service? > You can also use SMS without iMessage. But most people don't because it's the default. MS was found to have a monopoly with IE even though there were alternatives.
    - joshmanders 3y ago
      > But most people don't because it's the default. MS was found to have a monopoly with IE even though there were alternatives. Windows also was the dominant operating system with a market share in the 90% or higher. iOS isn't even the market leader in the US let alone the world, so can't really be a monopoly now can it?
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        > iOS isn't even the market leader in the US How can that not be true if most people in the US use an iPhone as their phone?
        joshmanders 3y ago
        iPhone and Samsung combined make up almost 80% of smart phone market share in the US. Being as Statistia is a premium thing I can't get accurate numbers, but lets say splitting 50/50 because if it was anything with any serious gap, they wouldn't group them the same. I'd assume they're high 40's and low 50's split between the two, so means iPhone is ~40%, now I ain't no math magician or anything but that leaves ~60% for non-iPhone devices.
3836293648 3y ago
Apples only escape here is that they're only popular in America. Whatsapp, Facebook messenger etc have to open up in the coming months because it's illegal in Europe. Apple should open up too, just like they have to with the App Store (because that is big enough to count as a gatekeeper)

overstay8930 3y ago

Here's how a monopoly hearing would work against iMessage: Apple: We do not restrict who you can talk to on iPhone Prosecutor: but the bubble is green and my friends won't talk to me :(

wraptile 3y ago
So if your ISP like AOL makes all of their webpages nice and fast but competitors slower and uglier artificially then is AOL abusing their market position here? We already set the precedent here that this is market abuse. This new case is no different. Also, Apple knows this. They know they'd lose that's why they are already ahead of this by announcing adoption of RCS in 2024. How can anyone presume that Apple would stand some sort of ideological ground here? We literally have emails where Apple c-suits say that iMessages mistreating android benefits them and they don't want to fix this. This is such a clear case I don't understand how anyone can defend this.
- bitwidget 3y ago
  I don't see how Apple is making Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Telegram, Signal, slower and uglier.