3 ms·

I'm not sure the US approach to free speech works that well in practice. Political polarization has become worse in the US than in most other developed countrie

I'm not sure the US approach to free speech works that well in practice. Political polarization has become worse in the US than in most other developed countries, and that looks like a consequence of free speech. When you value free speech far above social harmony, you give a lot of power to extremists of all kinds.

ExoticPearTree 3y ago
It is better to go through a phase like this than live in a country where you're not allowed to speak freely. This is the cost of being free, not everyone likes it, but it way better than the alternative.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  On what basis are the US limits to speech better than the European ones? The US is arguably a more violent society now - is that the better part? The GDP per capita being higher? The trade-off between the two?
  - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
    On the fact that you're investigated because you hold certain beliefs or say something that the party currently holding power doesn't like. I don't think it is a more violent society. Maybe in the discourse, but not in actual crime. And yes, people are more polarized, but I think it is tied more to the economic context than anything else.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Have you looked at homicide figures, for example? Europe around 3 per 100k (EU below 2), US above 6. The party thing was in the Eastern bloc, not sure where that is now the case.
      - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
        I would say having access to guns in the US makes killing someone much easier than in the EU where most countries banned guns, making murders much harder to commit with a knife or a blunt object. But this aside, did the murder rates increase in the last 10-20 years, decreased or is it the same?
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        Switzerland has a lot of guns but a homicide rate below 1 per 100k, it is not necessarily the guns as such. US rate is a little bit up from early 2010s, but a lot lower than in the 1980s, in the EU the rate was low in the early 2020s compared to the previous ten years.
somenameforme 3y ago
How do you reconcile this against the fact that extreme anti-establishment parties are surging throughout Europe, including in places like Germany that have some of the most extreme restrictions on speech? For instance Germany is now even considering trying to ban the AfD [1] (political party) who are now polling at > 20%, which is quite high in a functional multi-party system - higher than Olaf Scholz’s Social Democrats party. Incidentally 47% of the country supports banning them, 47% oppose it. There have also been numerous instances of violence against party members, and more. And there are similar divides in many other European countries. The one thing I'm certain of is that we're all living through a major inflection point in history, for better or for worse. [1] - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/afd-party-ban-germany-far-right-extremists/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/afd-party-ban-ge...
- jltsiren 3y ago
  European countries have a history of assimilating anti-establishment parties into the establishment. They did it with revolutionary communists, they did it with the green movement, and now they are doing it with the conservative nationalist / right-wing populist / whatever parties. The Finnish equivalent of the AfD is in a coalition government led by the traditional center-right party. In Sweden, the corresponding party supports the right-wing coalition. And in Italy, Brothers of Italy is the leading party in a coalition that turned out to be unexpectedly moderate.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    I think here you're talking more about what eventually will happen, while your earlier comment (and the one I was responding to), is more about what is happening. The fact that the polarization may end up playing out better than in the US (though the situation in Germany as of yet gives no indications of that) is a different issue than the fact that there is an undeniably sharp rise in polarization, even in places with stringent speech controls.
    - jltsiren 3y ago
      In my experience, polarization has been in decline in Europe for a few years. It started rising in the aftermath of the financial crisis and the refugee crisis, but the farce around Brexit and the Russian invasion of Ukraine tempered it. People are again willing to work within the system rather than trying to replace it with something radically different. Germany is a bit of a special case due to their history. They still can't cope with anything that looks even remotely similar to fascism.

ExoticPearTree 3y ago

It is better to go through a phase like this than live in a country where you're not allowed to speak freely. This is the cost of being free, not everyone likes it, but it way better than the alternative.

RandomLensman 3y ago
On what basis are the US limits to speech better than the European ones? The US is arguably a more violent society now - is that the better part? The GDP per capita being higher? The trade-off between the two?
- ExoticPearTree 3y ago
  On the fact that you're investigated because you hold certain beliefs or say something that the party currently holding power doesn't like. I don't think it is a more violent society. Maybe in the discourse, but not in actual crime. And yes, people are more polarized, but I think it is tied more to the economic context than anything else.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Have you looked at homicide figures, for example? Europe around 3 per 100k (EU below 2), US above 6. The party thing was in the Eastern bloc, not sure where that is now the case.
    - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
      I would say having access to guns in the US makes killing someone much easier than in the EU where most countries banned guns, making murders much harder to commit with a knife or a blunt object. But this aside, did the murder rates increase in the last 10-20 years, decreased or is it the same?
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        Switzerland has a lot of guns but a homicide rate below 1 per 100k, it is not necessarily the guns as such. US rate is a little bit up from early 2010s, but a lot lower than in the 1980s, in the EU the rate was low in the early 2020s compared to the previous ten years.

somenameforme 3y ago

How do you reconcile this against the fact that extreme anti-establishment parties are surging throughout Europe, including in places like Germany that have some of the most extreme restrictions on speech? For instance Germany is now even considering trying to ban the AfD [1] (political party) who are now polling at > 20%, which is quite high in a functional multi-party system - higher than Olaf Scholz’s Social Democrats party. Incidentally 47% of the country supports banning them, 47% oppose it. There have also been numerous instances of violence against party members, and more. And there are similar divides in many other European countries. The one thing I'm certain of is that we're all living through a major inflection point in history, for better or for worse. [1] - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/afd-party-ban-germany-far-right-extremists/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/afd-party-ban-ge...

jltsiren 3y ago
European countries have a history of assimilating anti-establishment parties into the establishment. They did it with revolutionary communists, they did it with the green movement, and now they are doing it with the conservative nationalist / right-wing populist / whatever parties. The Finnish equivalent of the AfD is in a coalition government led by the traditional center-right party. In Sweden, the corresponding party supports the right-wing coalition. And in Italy, Brothers of Italy is the leading party in a coalition that turned out to be unexpectedly moderate.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  I think here you're talking more about what eventually will happen, while your earlier comment (and the one I was responding to), is more about what is happening. The fact that the polarization may end up playing out better than in the US (though the situation in Germany as of yet gives no indications of that) is a different issue than the fact that there is an undeniably sharp rise in polarization, even in places with stringent speech controls.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    In my experience, polarization has been in decline in Europe for a few years. It started rising in the aftermath of the financial crisis and the refugee crisis, but the farce around Brexit and the Russian invasion of Ukraine tempered it. People are again willing to work within the system rather than trying to replace it with something radically different. Germany is a bit of a special case due to their history. They still can't cope with anything that looks even remotely similar to fascism.