3 ms·

Nothing EU specific. Most (all?) European countries have a very different view on freedom of speech than the US.

by RandomLensman 3y ago

focom 3y ago
"Europe 2.0" aka "the usa" has a better free speech implementation than "Europe 1.0". So yes different as in bad.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  What's your evidence for the assessment?
- pjc50 3y ago
  The European free speech legal infrastructure dates from the ECHR in 1950, and was somewhat imposed by the Allies after the war. As well as a lot of people who wanted to avoid having populist incitement to genocide again.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    The limits on free speech in European countries are also much older in parts. The history in Europe on that topic is just very different from the US, I'd say.
    - pjc50 3y ago
      Indeed. People forget that e.g. Portugal, Greece, and Spain were dictatorships until the 70s, and that a lot of eastern EU was under Communism until 1990s. "The EU" is not equivalent to "France and Germany", despite what they think.
      - DoughnutHole 3y ago
        The speech culture of France and Germany is very different to the US as well, it's not just the dictatorships of the recent past. Nazism as an ideology is illegal to promote in Germany. Use of Nazi symbols outside of an artistic or educational context is illegal in Germany and France (most European countries really). Several neo-nazi, neo-fascist, and communist parties have been banned since the founding of the modern German state. Far-right parties in Germany are always walking a fine line - if their membership flirts too much with nazism or fascism they are very much liable to be banned. Several European countries with strong democratic traditions in the modern era remain very wary of extreme ideologies. Their proponents murdered millions and burned the continent to the ground less than a century ago. Most people are comfortable with the state killing these movements in their infancy.
- timeon 3y ago
  USA is no Europe nor Rome. "free speech" is vague term.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  I'm not sure the US approach to free speech works that well in practice. Political polarization has become worse in the US than in most other developed countries, and that looks like a consequence of free speech. When you value free speech far above social harmony, you give a lot of power to extremists of all kinds.
  - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
    It is better to go through a phase like this than live in a country where you're not allowed to speak freely. This is the cost of being free, not everyone likes it, but it way better than the alternative.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      On what basis are the US limits to speech better than the European ones? The US is arguably a more violent society now - is that the better part? The GDP per capita being higher? The trade-off between the two?
      - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
        On the fact that you're investigated because you hold certain beliefs or say something that the party currently holding power doesn't like. I don't think it is a more violent society. Maybe in the discourse, but not in actual crime. And yes, people are more polarized, but I think it is tied more to the economic context than anything else.
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        Have you looked at homicide figures, for example? Europe around 3 per 100k (EU below 2), US above 6. The party thing was in the Eastern bloc, not sure where that is now the case.
        ExoticPearTree 3y ago
ExoticPearTree 3y ago
Very EU specific are all the points listed by the EC in their investigation. It cannot get more EU specific than this.
fallingknife 3y ago
Yes, specifically that people shouldn't have it.
- tephra 3y ago
  This is just wrong. In many EU countries the free speech protections are quite extensive (and some of us live in countries that have protected speech longer than the U.S have been around).
  - fallingknife 3y ago
    You can have a government that can punish you for saying things it doesn't like, or you can have freedom of speech. And here is your own high court proving that you don't https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/calling-muhammad-paedophile-not-protected-by-free-speech-1.3678825 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/calling-muhammad-paedo...
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      This is not the government wanting things, but a societal thing. These laws would not be particular difficult to remove if enough people wanted that. Germany removed something around insulting heads of states in 2017, for example.
    - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
      It is discouraging that the ECHR thinks you should not call a religious figure a pedophile. How is it right to tell people what to think?

Nothing EU specific. Most (all?) European countries have a very different view on freedom of speech than the US.

focom 3y ago

"Europe 2.0" aka "the usa" has a better free speech implementation than "Europe 1.0". So yes different as in bad.

RandomLensman 3y ago
What's your evidence for the assessment?
pjc50 3y ago
The European free speech legal infrastructure dates from the ECHR in 1950, and was somewhat imposed by the Allies after the war. As well as a lot of people who wanted to avoid having populist incitement to genocide again.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  The limits on free speech in European countries are also much older in parts. The history in Europe on that topic is just very different from the US, I'd say.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Indeed. People forget that e.g. Portugal, Greece, and Spain were dictatorships until the 70s, and that a lot of eastern EU was under Communism until 1990s. "The EU" is not equivalent to "France and Germany", despite what they think.
    - DoughnutHole 3y ago
      The speech culture of France and Germany is very different to the US as well, it's not just the dictatorships of the recent past. Nazism as an ideology is illegal to promote in Germany. Use of Nazi symbols outside of an artistic or educational context is illegal in Germany and France (most European countries really). Several neo-nazi, neo-fascist, and communist parties have been banned since the founding of the modern German state. Far-right parties in Germany are always walking a fine line - if their membership flirts too much with nazism or fascism they are very much liable to be banned. Several European countries with strong democratic traditions in the modern era remain very wary of extreme ideologies. Their proponents murdered millions and burned the continent to the ground less than a century ago. Most people are comfortable with the state killing these movements in their infancy.
timeon 3y ago
USA is no Europe nor Rome. "free speech" is vague term.
jltsiren 3y ago
I'm not sure the US approach to free speech works that well in practice. Political polarization has become worse in the US than in most other developed countries, and that looks like a consequence of free speech. When you value free speech far above social harmony, you give a lot of power to extremists of all kinds.
- ExoticPearTree 3y ago
  It is better to go through a phase like this than live in a country where you're not allowed to speak freely. This is the cost of being free, not everyone likes it, but it way better than the alternative.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    On what basis are the US limits to speech better than the European ones? The US is arguably a more violent society now - is that the better part? The GDP per capita being higher? The trade-off between the two?
    - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
      On the fact that you're investigated because you hold certain beliefs or say something that the party currently holding power doesn't like. I don't think it is a more violent society. Maybe in the discourse, but not in actual crime. And yes, people are more polarized, but I think it is tied more to the economic context than anything else.
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        Have you looked at homicide figures, for example? Europe around 3 per 100k (EU below 2), US above 6. The party thing was in the Eastern bloc, not sure where that is now the case.
        ExoticPearTree 3y ago

ExoticPearTree 3y ago

Very EU specific are all the points listed by the EC in their investigation. It cannot get more EU specific than this.

fallingknife 3y ago

Yes, specifically that people shouldn't have it.

tephra 3y ago
This is just wrong. In many EU countries the free speech protections are quite extensive (and some of us live in countries that have protected speech longer than the U.S have been around).
- fallingknife 3y ago
  You can have a government that can punish you for saying things it doesn't like, or you can have freedom of speech. And here is your own high court proving that you don't https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/calling-muhammad-paedophile-not-protected-by-free-speech-1.3678825 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/calling-muhammad-paedo...
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    This is not the government wanting things, but a societal thing. These laws would not be particular difficult to remove if enough people wanted that. Germany removed something around insulting heads of states in 2017, for example.
  - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
    It is discouraging that the ECHR thinks you should not call a religious figure a pedophile. How is it right to tell people what to think?