4 ms·

Quebec French is very different though. It's like Swiss German and German, the Swiss understand the Germans, but not the other way around. It's not just the ac

by carlmr 3y ago

Quebec French is very different though. It's like Swiss German and German, the Swiss understand the Germans, but not the other way around. It's not just the accent, it's the choice of words, the enunciation, everything.

Bayart 3y ago
Hardly. Swiss German and Standard High German are entirely different languages, despite what the name would lead you to think. Quebec French is at most a dialect of French. There's as much different as there is between say RP English and Scottish English.
- 4ggr0 3y ago
  As a Swiss who's mother tongue is swiss-german, but also talks french, AND has a French-Canadian co-worker - Disagree.
- BSDobelix 3y ago
  >Swiss German and Standard High German are entirely different languages Not a different language but a dialect-group within high german called Alemanic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German Also interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    Based on that definition Dutch also wouldn’t be a different language but a dialect within High German called Franconian. Now try telling Dutch people that they don’t actually have their own language and are all speaking Low Country German and see what happens… Most distinctions between dialects and languages are socio-political and not linguistic. There is a similar continuum between North/Low German and Frisian. Yet you cross a border and just like Dutch/Franconian it’s no longer a dialect but a different language.
    - BSDobelix 3y ago
      Let's see what happens if you tell them that we all talk Indo-European ;) Except Hungary, Finnland and Estland
    - acjohnson55 3y ago
      According to Wikipedia, Franconian is split between Low Franconian dialects, including Dutch, and the others, which underwent the same consonant shift as the High German languages. But I agree that the boundaries of languages are not purely linguistic.
  - acjohnson55 3y ago
    I don't think you have that quite right. Alemannic does not include Standard High German. Alemannic is a group of High German dialects in the southwestern German-speaking areas.
    - BSDobelix 3y ago
      >>dialect-group within high german
    - BSDobelix 3y ago
      >Alemannic does not include Standard High German. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages >>The High German languages (German: hochdeutsche Mundarten, i.e. High German dialects), or simply High German (Hochdeutsch) – not to be confused with Standard High German which is commonly also called "High German"
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  To be fair Scots was/is an actual language. Scottish English isn’t it but it certainly was heavily influenced by Scots. In all the three cases you’ve mentioned it’s a spectrum. The distinction between a language and a dialect is not clear at all. e.g. while it wouldn’t be correct to call Swiss-German a dialect of standard German both languages are German Dialects. > Quebec French is at most a dialect of French. Yes it’s a dialect of French, it’s not a dialect or accent of standard French. There is nothing special about Standard German or French besides the fact that they are dialects which have outcompeted all other dialects of those languages to a less or more successful degree due to entirely political and economical reasons.
  - FeloniousHam 3y ago
    ""A language is a dialect with an army and a navy" is a phrase attributed to Max Weinreich, a Yiddish scholar and sociolinguist. Weinreich is said to have heard the phrase from an audience member at one of his lectures in the 1940s. "
musha68k 3y ago
Native German speaker from Austria here who has been living in Quebec for many years. I had to study and pass my exams in standard French with a Parisian institution. This is made obligatory by the Quebec government for immigrants if they want to stay and apply for a PR. Anyways, the insight I want to share here is that Quebecois French is much closer to Austrian or Bavarian German vs Standard German. Both share a similar trajectory with their standard counterparts, diverging over centuries but in the end remaining more comprehensible compared to Swiss German. Quebecois, evolving since the 17th century from settlers' French and Austrian/Bavarian dialects, shaped since the 6th century's “Lautverschiebung” are also old but less divergent branches. Swiss German, though also rooted in the High German shift, has veered more distinctly. Watching Swiss TV (SRF), I only get about 80-90% due to that deeper linguistic forking. Standard Quebecois has not been much harder for me to understand than standard French. Like in Austrian German there are certain “quirks” but again much easier to parse from context than with Swiss German. Of course there might be the case where a heavy local dialect becomes even harder to understand than say Swiss German even. German language learners could test their comprehension of Swiss vs going to a pub in Wien Ottakring or into a deep recess of the Tyrollean alps. I’d guess some encounters would be minimum as hard to understand if not harder. Same for rural Quebec etc. Then again the underlying grammar even can be really different in fundamental ways with Swiss German which is not the case for Quebecois. TL;DR standard Quebecois is easier to understand and much closer to standard French than standard Swiss German is to standard German. IMHO: France has just been very steadfast about language standardization up to this day and across its zone of influence. E.g. there even is obligatory standard French language learning in Quebec for immigrants and possibly public schools as well. So for some people from France they often don’t have developed the “muscle” for even slight derivations. In addition not much proficiency in “foreign languages” in general especially for older generations.
loufe 3y ago
It's more from ignorance than anything. I speak Quebec French and had little trouble being understood in France in the two times I've visited. I have folks from France, French Africa, and Haïti here at my job. It's more just ignorance about the accent than a lack of actual experience not being able to understand it. It's certainly not analagous Californian English to Shetlandish Scots, far from it.

by carlmr 3y ago

Bayart 3y ago

Hardly. Swiss German and Standard High German are entirely different languages, despite what the name would lead you to think. Quebec French is at most a dialect of French. There's as much different as there is between say RP English and Scottish English.

4ggr0 3y ago
As a Swiss who's mother tongue is swiss-german, but also talks french, AND has a French-Canadian co-worker - Disagree.
BSDobelix 3y ago
>Swiss German and Standard High German are entirely different languages Not a different language but a dialect-group within high german called Alemanic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German Also interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  Based on that definition Dutch also wouldn’t be a different language but a dialect within High German called Franconian. Now try telling Dutch people that they don’t actually have their own language and are all speaking Low Country German and see what happens… Most distinctions between dialects and languages are socio-political and not linguistic. There is a similar continuum between North/Low German and Frisian. Yet you cross a border and just like Dutch/Franconian it’s no longer a dialect but a different language.
  - BSDobelix 3y ago
    Let's see what happens if you tell them that we all talk Indo-European ;) Except Hungary, Finnland and Estland
  - acjohnson55 3y ago
    According to Wikipedia, Franconian is split between Low Franconian dialects, including Dutch, and the others, which underwent the same consonant shift as the High German languages. But I agree that the boundaries of languages are not purely linguistic.
- acjohnson55 3y ago
  I don't think you have that quite right. Alemannic does not include Standard High German. Alemannic is a group of High German dialects in the southwestern German-speaking areas.
  - BSDobelix 3y ago
    >>dialect-group within high german
  - BSDobelix 3y ago
    >Alemannic does not include Standard High German. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_languages >>The High German languages (German: hochdeutsche Mundarten, i.e. High German dialects), or simply High German (Hochdeutsch) – not to be confused with Standard High German which is commonly also called "High German"
ffgjgf1 3y ago
To be fair Scots was/is an actual language. Scottish English isn’t it but it certainly was heavily influenced by Scots. In all the three cases you’ve mentioned it’s a spectrum. The distinction between a language and a dialect is not clear at all. e.g. while it wouldn’t be correct to call Swiss-German a dialect of standard German both languages are German Dialects. > Quebec French is at most a dialect of French. Yes it’s a dialect of French, it’s not a dialect or accent of standard French. There is nothing special about Standard German or French besides the fact that they are dialects which have outcompeted all other dialects of those languages to a less or more successful degree due to entirely political and economical reasons.
- FeloniousHam 3y ago
  ""A language is a dialect with an army and a navy" is a phrase attributed to Max Weinreich, a Yiddish scholar and sociolinguist. Weinreich is said to have heard the phrase from an audience member at one of his lectures in the 1940s. "

musha68k 3y ago

Native German speaker from Austria here who has been living in Quebec for many years. I had to study and pass my exams in standard French with a Parisian institution. This is made obligatory by the Quebec government for immigrants if they want to stay and apply for a PR. Anyways, the insight I want to share here is that Quebecois French is much closer to Austrian or Bavarian German vs Standard German. Both share a similar trajectory with their standard counterparts, diverging over centuries but in the end remaining more comprehensible compared to Swiss German. Quebecois, evolving since the 17th century from settlers' French and Austrian/Bavarian dialects, shaped since the 6th century's “Lautverschiebung” are also old but less divergent branches. Swiss German, though also rooted in the High German shift, has veered more distinctly. Watching Swiss TV (SRF), I only get about 80-90% due to that deeper linguistic forking. Standard Quebecois has not been much harder for me to understand than standard French. Like in Austrian German there are certain “quirks” but again much easier to parse from context than with Swiss German. Of course there might be the case where a heavy local dialect becomes even harder to understand than say Swiss German even. German language learners could test their comprehension of Swiss vs going to a pub in Wien Ottakring or into a deep recess of the Tyrollean alps. I’d guess some encounters would be minimum as hard to understand if not harder. Same for rural Quebec etc. Then again the underlying grammar even can be really different in fundamental ways with Swiss German which is not the case for Quebecois. TL;DR standard Quebecois is easier to understand and much closer to standard French than standard Swiss German is to standard German. IMHO: France has just been very steadfast about language standardization up to this day and across its zone of influence. E.g. there even is obligatory standard French language learning in Quebec for immigrants and possibly public schools as well. So for some people from France they often don’t have developed the “muscle” for even slight derivations. In addition not much proficiency in “foreign languages” in general especially for older generations.

loufe 3y ago

It's more from ignorance than anything. I speak Quebec French and had little trouble being understood in France in the two times I've visited. I have folks from France, French Africa, and Haïti here at my job. It's more just ignorance about the accent than a lack of actual experience not being able to understand it. It's certainly not analagous Californian English to Shetlandish Scots, far from it.