4 ms·

Have you fully read my comment? Time dilation is not proof of the existence of time as a physical entity, it is proof of different process speeds. This seems re

Have you fully read my comment? Time dilation is not proof of the existence of time as a physical entity, it is proof of different process speeds. This seems redundant and recursive, but time means something only for a sentient observer. There is no requirement in a time as a particle or dimension for the universe to exist and function. Time dilation does not imply that there is a past you can return to. You can't use time dilation as proof of the existence of time. The mere existence of photons is possible only because of the time dilation effect as we call it. However, if you look at it from the perspective of different speeds of process flows under the effects of time dilation, you will see that time is not a physical entity, it is our means of perceiving changes. So, this time travel to the future at relativistic speed is actually the same process but at a slower rate of change. I know it makes it complicated because of how we measure things, we need time to perceive changes and measure them, but it does not actually mean that time exists as a physical entity. Assume it will be possible to freeze you to absolute 0 and unfreeze you afterwards and revive. Let's say we freeze you in New York, and move your frozen body to San Francisco. You wake up and here is your spacetime travel.

galaxyLogic 3y ago
These are all semantic ontological questions which are worth thinking about. What would it mean that "time exists" vs. "time does not exist"? What would be some consequences of time existing or not? I tend to take a practical viewpoint: I can travel thousand years into the future of our planet by moving fast enough in space and coming back. Time-travel into the future works. Whether that means that "time exists" or not, I don't really care because I can't see practical consequences of that. What would be some verifiable consequences of time existing, or not?
- pk-protect-ai 3y ago
  > What would be some consequences of time existing or not? The recognition of time as a non-fundamental concept reduces the amount of falsehood in the thinking process. Have you ever thought about why time is externalized in quantum physics? For example, if you look at the Schrödinger equation, what do you see? I've heard in recent discussions that there are attempts to make time responsible for gravitation as well. It seems so convenient. However, if you think about it a little bit deeper, you can see that it's the gravitational gradient that is responsible for time dilation. Interchanging the cause and effect was never proven to be useful. Yes, fantasy is very important for progress, though accepting time as a fundamental part of the universe's mechanics without any kind of empirical evidence is not really scientific. Einstein's spacetime and Minkowski's spacetime are amazingly useful abstractions. However, time as a physical entity or dimension in these concepts has never received any empirical evidence. No, time dilation is not a proof of time as a dimension or part of the universe's clockwork.
  - galaxyLogic 3y ago
    It is hard to wrap our minds around the concept of "Time", since we exist in it. Like fish in the sea are not aware that the sea exists. For humans it took a long time to realize that there is something called "air" around us. Or that Earth is round even though it looks flat from where we are looking at it currently. Yet, the gravitational and kinematic effects on time have been empirically verified, by scientists. They can measure how much faster or slower time passes under specific conditions. So we can "measure time itself", not just how long other physical processes take. If and since we can measure time itself, it gives credence to the claim that time exists as a measurable entity. It is something we can measure as separate from all other measurable things. If you can measure something, I would say it exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experim... : "Because the Hafele–Keating experiment has been reproduced by increasingly accurate methods, there has been a consensus among physicists since at least the 1970s that the relativistic predictions of gravitational and kinematic effects on time have been conclusively verified. "
    - pk-protect-ai 3y ago
      "Since the Hafele–Keating experiment has been reproduced by increasingly accurate methods, there has been a consensus among physicists since at least the 1970s that the relativistic predictions of gravitational and kinematic effects on time have been conclusively verified." However, this does not verify that time exists as a fundamental entity of the universe. This is an empirically proven effect of time dilation that has been verified countless times. It merely shows that the process flow differs under different gravitational and kinematic conditions. This demonstrates that the dilation effect does exist and that Einstein was correct about the perception of time flow within a given frame of reference. However, this does not make time a fundamental gear in the clockwork of the universe. Let's delve into a thought experiment. We'll replace our spacetime with something very similar that will yield the same effects: 1. Imagine there is a 1D dimension that is perpendicular to each of the coordinates of our space (excluding time as a dimension for this thought experiment). 2. The singularity (a 0D object) transformed into a 1D vector of universe expansion and the 3D space at the big bang (we don't know how). As this 1D space is perpendicular to all three of our dimensions, the expansion of the universe happens in all directions in the 3D space. Our 3D space expands in all directions at each single point in the universe. 3.The rate of universe expansion in 1D space is a constant 1 (due to the inverse-square law I = S / (2πr^(D-1)), where D is the dimensions of the space). Bear with me here, I'm not denying the accelerated rate of universe expansion as we perceive it. This only implies that the universe will never stop expanding and the big bang never ceased in the 1D space; it continues and will last forever (assuming there are no other factors, including gravitational effects, that would halt this expansion). 4.Energy is leaking in all directions from the 1D space to our 3D space. 5. Simultaneously, the immense amount of energy in this 1D space has a significant gravitational effect on the energy (and later the matter) in our 3D space, which already contains an immense quantity and also has gravitational effects on itself and the 1D space. The energy density is so high and the space is so distorted that there are colossal pressure waves already present within the 3D space in all directions. Matter forms. Matter collapses into (micro-)singularities (???) - but perhaps not yet, this is too far stretched here, my fantasy and imagination are failing here. The one fact remains: the time dilation effect is already present and it affects everything. As there is no center in this expansion (remember, 1D space is everywhere and perpendicular to each of the 3D axes of our space), this energy-filled space experiences the same time dilation effect in all directions. Only fluctuations and the matter which is forming under pressure waves clustering together under the gravitational effects and starting to form the gravitational gradients. These gradients assure the difference in a "time flow", making it further possible for the matter to cluster. And there is a glimpse of evidence that at the beginning of times, the time dilation effects were five times higher than now¹. 6. As we move further in time from the Big Bang, the space becomes more stretched, and the time dilation effect in all directions of the universe decreases. However, the clustered matter has its own effect on the time dilation due to its gravity, and of course, the gravity gradients dictate the rate of the dilation effect in addition to the global time dilation effect that 1D space puts in place. This provides a potential explanation for the observed differences in the speed of matter in galaxies, which are attributed to dark matter right now, but this has to be studied and tested at so many angles that will not even start counting. 7. Actually, none of the above, exactly as the Schrödinger equation we spoke earlier, require the time to be something internal, something that is required for the universe to tick. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-flowed-five-times-slower-shortly-after-the-big-bang/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-flowed-five-...

galaxyLogic 3y ago

These are all semantic ontological questions which are worth thinking about. What would it mean that "time exists" vs. "time does not exist"? What would be some consequences of time existing or not? I tend to take a practical viewpoint: I can travel thousand years into the future of our planet by moving fast enough in space and coming back. Time-travel into the future works. Whether that means that "time exists" or not, I don't really care because I can't see practical consequences of that. What would be some verifiable consequences of time existing, or not?

pk-protect-ai 3y ago
> What would be some consequences of time existing or not? The recognition of time as a non-fundamental concept reduces the amount of falsehood in the thinking process. Have you ever thought about why time is externalized in quantum physics? For example, if you look at the Schrödinger equation, what do you see? I've heard in recent discussions that there are attempts to make time responsible for gravitation as well. It seems so convenient. However, if you think about it a little bit deeper, you can see that it's the gravitational gradient that is responsible for time dilation. Interchanging the cause and effect was never proven to be useful. Yes, fantasy is very important for progress, though accepting time as a fundamental part of the universe's mechanics without any kind of empirical evidence is not really scientific. Einstein's spacetime and Minkowski's spacetime are amazingly useful abstractions. However, time as a physical entity or dimension in these concepts has never received any empirical evidence. No, time dilation is not a proof of time as a dimension or part of the universe's clockwork.
- galaxyLogic 3y ago
  It is hard to wrap our minds around the concept of "Time", since we exist in it. Like fish in the sea are not aware that the sea exists. For humans it took a long time to realize that there is something called "air" around us. Or that Earth is round even though it looks flat from where we are looking at it currently. Yet, the gravitational and kinematic effects on time have been empirically verified, by scientists. They can measure how much faster or slower time passes under specific conditions. So we can "measure time itself", not just how long other physical processes take. If and since we can measure time itself, it gives credence to the claim that time exists as a measurable entity. It is something we can measure as separate from all other measurable things. If you can measure something, I would say it exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experim... : "Because the Hafele–Keating experiment has been reproduced by increasingly accurate methods, there has been a consensus among physicists since at least the 1970s that the relativistic predictions of gravitational and kinematic effects on time have been conclusively verified. "
  - pk-protect-ai 3y ago
    "Since the Hafele–Keating experiment has been reproduced by increasingly accurate methods, there has been a consensus among physicists since at least the 1970s that the relativistic predictions of gravitational and kinematic effects on time have been conclusively verified." However, this does not verify that time exists as a fundamental entity of the universe. This is an empirically proven effect of time dilation that has been verified countless times. It merely shows that the process flow differs under different gravitational and kinematic conditions. This demonstrates that the dilation effect does exist and that Einstein was correct about the perception of time flow within a given frame of reference. However, this does not make time a fundamental gear in the clockwork of the universe. Let's delve into a thought experiment. We'll replace our spacetime with something very similar that will yield the same effects: 1. Imagine there is a 1D dimension that is perpendicular to each of the coordinates of our space (excluding time as a dimension for this thought experiment). 2. The singularity (a 0D object) transformed into a 1D vector of universe expansion and the 3D space at the big bang (we don't know how). As this 1D space is perpendicular to all three of our dimensions, the expansion of the universe happens in all directions in the 3D space. Our 3D space expands in all directions at each single point in the universe. 3.The rate of universe expansion in 1D space is a constant 1 (due to the inverse-square law I = S / (2πr^(D-1)), where D is the dimensions of the space). Bear with me here, I'm not denying the accelerated rate of universe expansion as we perceive it. This only implies that the universe will never stop expanding and the big bang never ceased in the 1D space; it continues and will last forever (assuming there are no other factors, including gravitational effects, that would halt this expansion). 4.Energy is leaking in all directions from the 1D space to our 3D space. 5. Simultaneously, the immense amount of energy in this 1D space has a significant gravitational effect on the energy (and later the matter) in our 3D space, which already contains an immense quantity and also has gravitational effects on itself and the 1D space. The energy density is so high and the space is so distorted that there are colossal pressure waves already present within the 3D space in all directions. Matter forms. Matter collapses into (micro-)singularities (???) - but perhaps not yet, this is too far stretched here, my fantasy and imagination are failing here. The one fact remains: the time dilation effect is already present and it affects everything. As there is no center in this expansion (remember, 1D space is everywhere and perpendicular to each of the 3D axes of our space), this energy-filled space experiences the same time dilation effect in all directions. Only fluctuations and the matter which is forming under pressure waves clustering together under the gravitational effects and starting to form the gravitational gradients. These gradients assure the difference in a "time flow", making it further possible for the matter to cluster. And there is a glimpse of evidence that at the beginning of times, the time dilation effects were five times higher than now¹. 6. As we move further in time from the Big Bang, the space becomes more stretched, and the time dilation effect in all directions of the universe decreases. However, the clustered matter has its own effect on the time dilation due to its gravity, and of course, the gravity gradients dictate the rate of the dilation effect in addition to the global time dilation effect that 1D space puts in place. This provides a potential explanation for the observed differences in the speed of matter in galaxies, which are attributed to dark matter right now, but this has to be studied and tested at so many angles that will not even start counting. 7. Actually, none of the above, exactly as the Schrödinger equation we spoke earlier, require the time to be something internal, something that is required for the universe to tick. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-flowed-five-times-slower-shortly-after-the-big-bang/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-flowed-five-...