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An unamicable divorce can certainly be bad, but don't under-estimate how bad it is for a child to grow up in a marriage where both partners hate each other, but

An unamicable divorce can certainly be bad, but don't under-estimate how bad it is for a child to grow up in a marriage where both partners hate each other, but can't leave. Forcing marriage seems like a terrible way to achieve the same thing.

ndriscoll 3y ago
It's actually amicable divorces which would most obviously be banned under such a justification. You're basically signaling to the child "I didn't hate your other parent, wasn't being abused, etc. I'm just choosing to abandon my family (you)". Similar reasoning could justify adultery being a crime against your children.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Correct.
rayiner 3y ago
This is something Americans say, but we have empirical data that it’s not true. Compare poor Asian Americans, who have very low divorce rates (similar to rich Asians), to poor whites, who have very high divorce rates. Poor Asian kids have double or triple the chance of becoming upper middle class as adults compared to poor whites. Mormons, another group that emphasizes family stability, also have much higher economic mobility than other whites. As Charlie Munger used to say: figure out what works and then do it. My parents are Asians who don’t get along, while my wife’s parents are white people who have been divorced three times each. Her parents are happier, but my life was easier and opportunities came much more readily. Divorce is a great way to turn a solidly middle class family into two financially struggling families, disrupt kids’ education, extra-curricular activities, social circles, etc. And it doesn’t end when the kids grow up, because that strain of financial resources continues into adulthood when parents come to depend on children. Americans are rich enough where imposing those costs on their kids isn’t fatal. But imagine you’re in a third world village, and at the edge of survival to begin with. Your mom and dad are “no longer in love.” Dad leaves, and the mom and kids starve to death immediately. That’s why most traditional societies have strong norms against divorce.
- exolymph 3y ago
  > Compare poor Asian Americans, who have very low divorce rates (similar to rich Asians), to poor whites, who have very high divorce rates. Poor Asian kids have double or triple the chance of becoming upper middle class as adults compared to poor whites. I'm not pro-divorce, but it's difficult to isolate just one variable here. There are numerous other cultural differences.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    But attitudes about family are the thing Mormons and various Asian groups have in common, while diverging on most other respects.
    - zztop44 3y ago
      “Various Asian groups” don’t have attitudes about family in common with even each other. Do you think Koreans and Filipinos (for example) think about family the same way? Being the child of a first generation migrant seems to be good for social mobility. Being part of a exclusive clique with entrenched access to elite power might help too. Probably there are many factors.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        Divorce is illegal in the Philippines, and South Korea doesn’t have unilateral no-fault divorce. I’m Bangladeshi, and my in laws include Taiwanese and Filipino families. Pretty much the only thing we have in common culturally is norms around marriage and divorce, and familial obligation. And Mormons don’t have “entrenched access to exclusive power.” They’re a persecuted minority that was driven to the arid desert and managed to turn it into a thriving place.
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  > As Charlie Munger used to say: figure out what works and then do it. I don't think that "upward social mobility" should be our only metric. > But imagine you’re in a third world village, and at the edge of survival to begin with. Your mom and dad are “no longer in love.” Dad leaves, and the mom and kids starve to death immediately. That’s why most traditional societies have strong norms against divorce. Most traditional societies don't have nuclear families, with 2.4 children and only two adults to raise them in the suburbs outside of a large city.

ndriscoll 3y ago

It's actually amicable divorces which would most obviously be banned under such a justification. You're basically signaling to the child "I didn't hate your other parent, wasn't being abused, etc. I'm just choosing to abandon my family (you)". Similar reasoning could justify adultery being a crime against your children.

rayiner 3y ago
Correct.

rayiner 3y ago

This is something Americans say, but we have empirical data that it’s not true. Compare poor Asian Americans, who have very low divorce rates (similar to rich Asians), to poor whites, who have very high divorce rates. Poor Asian kids have double or triple the chance of becoming upper middle class as adults compared to poor whites. Mormons, another group that emphasizes family stability, also have much higher economic mobility than other whites. As Charlie Munger used to say: figure out what works and then do it. My parents are Asians who don’t get along, while my wife’s parents are white people who have been divorced three times each. Her parents are happier, but my life was easier and opportunities came much more readily. Divorce is a great way to turn a solidly middle class family into two financially struggling families, disrupt kids’ education, extra-curricular activities, social circles, etc. And it doesn’t end when the kids grow up, because that strain of financial resources continues into adulthood when parents come to depend on children. Americans are rich enough where imposing those costs on their kids isn’t fatal. But imagine you’re in a third world village, and at the edge of survival to begin with. Your mom and dad are “no longer in love.” Dad leaves, and the mom and kids starve to death immediately. That’s why most traditional societies have strong norms against divorce.

exolymph 3y ago
> Compare poor Asian Americans, who have very low divorce rates (similar to rich Asians), to poor whites, who have very high divorce rates. Poor Asian kids have double or triple the chance of becoming upper middle class as adults compared to poor whites. I'm not pro-divorce, but it's difficult to isolate just one variable here. There are numerous other cultural differences.
- rayiner 3y ago
  But attitudes about family are the thing Mormons and various Asian groups have in common, while diverging on most other respects.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    “Various Asian groups” don’t have attitudes about family in common with even each other. Do you think Koreans and Filipinos (for example) think about family the same way? Being the child of a first generation migrant seems to be good for social mobility. Being part of a exclusive clique with entrenched access to elite power might help too. Probably there are many factors.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      Divorce is illegal in the Philippines, and South Korea doesn’t have unilateral no-fault divorce. I’m Bangladeshi, and my in laws include Taiwanese and Filipino families. Pretty much the only thing we have in common culturally is norms around marriage and divorce, and familial obligation. And Mormons don’t have “entrenched access to exclusive power.” They’re a persecuted minority that was driven to the arid desert and managed to turn it into a thriving place.
pavel_lishin 3y ago
> As Charlie Munger used to say: figure out what works and then do it. I don't think that "upward social mobility" should be our only metric. > But imagine you’re in a third world village, and at the edge of survival to begin with. Your mom and dad are “no longer in love.” Dad leaves, and the mom and kids starve to death immediately. That’s why most traditional societies have strong norms against divorce. Most traditional societies don't have nuclear families, with 2.4 children and only two adults to raise them in the suburbs outside of a large city.