4 ms·

Mobs of people storming the Capitol is a violation of norms. Are you sure you are okay?

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
wizardrobe didn't say it wasn't a violation of norms. Said it wasn't the first violation of norms. (Mind you, I don't know what specific previous violations wizardrobe had it mind...) It's like, in Rome, Caesar wasn't the first violation of norms. The Gracchi were. Then came Marius and Sulla. Sulla restored the norms and retired - but the precedent of violating the norms had already been set. 19 years later came the first triumvirate. 11 years after that came the civil war.
rayiner 3y ago
This is America. This shit happens. A mob just tried to storm the White House last month: https://www.jpost.com/international/article-771751 https://www.jpost.com/international/article-771751. The Capitol just happens to have no real security (it never had—my wife used to sneak into the Congressional subway system all the time). It’s been bombed at least twice.
- dctoedt 3y ago
  So you're equating a few outliers trying to get attention, with an armed mob of thousands — summoned, dispatched, and then egged on by the sitting POTUS. JFC.
  - nec4b 3y ago
    Are you trying to say if only a few outliers bomb a building is somehow ok? Or because they were far left terrorist its nothing to worry about?
    - dctoedt 3y ago
      > Are you trying to say if only a few outliers bomb a building is somehow ok? No. That's false-dichotomy thinking, along the lines of, "It HAS to be either A or B, and it's not B, so it MUST be A." > Or because they were far left terrorist its nothing to worry about? No. They're both bad. But: 1. The BLM rioting was mostly spontaneous and rag-tag, whereas Jan. 6 was orchestrated by the then-Commander in Chief of the U.S. armed forces, aided and abetted by his acolytes in and out of government (including outsiders such as the Proud Boys); and 2. The societal risks to democratic governance differed enormously. Unlike the BLM rioting, Jan. 6 could conceivably have played out like the October Revolution in the Russia of 1917, where an armed Leninist minority seized power and displaced the Kerensky provisional government that had itself taken control in the wake of the February Revolution. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution
      - nec4b 3y ago
        >> The BLM rioting was mostly spontaneous and rag-tag Sure they were. I wonder why they are otherwise organized and have leadership and full approval of the party which is currently in power? >> The societal risks to democratic governance differed enormously. Unlike the BLM rioting Unlike BLM rioting or bombing of the capitol by the far left terrorist they didn't do any property damage or attack other people on the street.
        dctoedt 3y ago
        > I wonder why they [BLM rioters] are otherwise organized and have leadership and full approval of the party which is currently in power? I don't think you can support that contention with, y'know, evidence. Keep in mind that some — not all — of the so-called BLM arson incidents were later found to have been done as false-flag operations by far-right extremist types [0] or as plain old insurance fraud. [1] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo... [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minnesota-trump-supporter-pleads-guilty-fire-blamed-left-wing-vandals-rcna51799 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minnesota-trump-support...
        nec4b 3y ago
        What do you mean without evidence? You are contesting BLM has leadership? They have a website, you can check it out. Regarding the democratic party support, there are a lot of videos from cnn and other networks interviews where visible member give their support to BLM.
        dctoedt 3y ago
        You're painting with a broad brush: "BLM" ≠ "rioting." EDIT: From a 2020 Trump Administration report: "President Donald Trump has blamed leftwing extremist groups for instigating nights of looting and violence in cities across the United States, but an intelligence assessment offers limited evidence that organized extremists are behind the turmoil. [¶] In part of a June 1 internal intelligence assessment of the protests seen by Reuters, U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) officials said most of the violence appears to have been driven by opportunists." [0] [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN23A1MZ/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN23A1MZ/

wizardrobe didn't say it wasn't a violation of norms. Said it wasn't the first violation of norms. (Mind you, I don't know what specific previous violations wizardrobe had it mind...) It's like, in Rome, Caesar wasn't the first violation of norms. The Gracchi were. Then came Marius and Sulla. Sulla restored the norms and retired - but the precedent of violating the norms had already been set. 19 years later came the first triumvirate. 11 years after that came the civil war.

rayiner 3y ago

This is America. This shit happens. A mob just tried to storm the White House last month: https://www.jpost.com/international/article-771751 https://www.jpost.com/international/article-771751. The Capitol just happens to have no real security (it never had—my wife used to sneak into the Congressional subway system all the time). It’s been bombed at least twice.

dctoedt 3y ago
So you're equating a few outliers trying to get attention, with an armed mob of thousands — summoned, dispatched, and then egged on by the sitting POTUS. JFC.
- nec4b 3y ago
  Are you trying to say if only a few outliers bomb a building is somehow ok? Or because they were far left terrorist its nothing to worry about?
  - dctoedt 3y ago
    > Are you trying to say if only a few outliers bomb a building is somehow ok? No. That's false-dichotomy thinking, along the lines of, "It HAS to be either A or B, and it's not B, so it MUST be A." > Or because they were far left terrorist its nothing to worry about? No. They're both bad. But: 1. The BLM rioting was mostly spontaneous and rag-tag, whereas Jan. 6 was orchestrated by the then-Commander in Chief of the U.S. armed forces, aided and abetted by his acolytes in and out of government (including outsiders such as the Proud Boys); and 2. The societal risks to democratic governance differed enormously. Unlike the BLM rioting, Jan. 6 could conceivably have played out like the October Revolution in the Russia of 1917, where an armed Leninist minority seized power and displaced the Kerensky provisional government that had itself taken control in the wake of the February Revolution. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution
    - nec4b 3y ago
      >> The BLM rioting was mostly spontaneous and rag-tag Sure they were. I wonder why they are otherwise organized and have leadership and full approval of the party which is currently in power? >> The societal risks to democratic governance differed enormously. Unlike the BLM rioting Unlike BLM rioting or bombing of the capitol by the far left terrorist they didn't do any property damage or attack other people on the street.
      - dctoedt 3y ago
        > I wonder why they [BLM rioters] are otherwise organized and have leadership and full approval of the party which is currently in power? I don't think you can support that contention with, y'know, evidence. Keep in mind that some — not all — of the so-called BLM arson incidents were later found to have been done as false-flag operations by far-right extremist types [0] or as plain old insurance fraud. [1] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo... [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minnesota-trump-supporter-pleads-guilty-fire-blamed-left-wing-vandals-rcna51799 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minnesota-trump-support...
        nec4b 3y ago
        What do you mean without evidence? You are contesting BLM has leadership? They have a website, you can check it out. Regarding the democratic party support, there are a lot of videos from cnn and other networks interviews where visible member give their support to BLM.
        dctoedt 3y ago
        You're painting with a broad brush: "BLM" ≠ "rioting." EDIT: From a 2020 Trump Administration report: "President Donald Trump has blamed leftwing extremist groups for instigating nights of looting and violence in cities across the United States, but an intelligence assessment offers limited evidence that organized extremists are behind the turmoil. [¶] In part of a June 1 internal intelligence assessment of the protests seen by Reuters, U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) officials said most of the violence appears to have been driven by opportunists." [0] [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN23A1MZ/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN23A1MZ/