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“In all honesty, it was the Debt Crisis that ended the Roman Republic. There was a Sovereign Debt Crisis during the Roman Republic period resulted in a dictator

• wizerdrobe 3y ago
  Why would you consider January 6 protests to be the turning point specifically? It was neither particularly violent nor a first regarding violation of norms. There was no attempt at rallying armed forces in a coup d’etat. Could just as well consider something like the Tea Party circa 2010 a turning point in separatism. For the modern era, at least.
  • Raptor22 3y ago
    > It was neither particularly violent Wow. I know perhaps this makes sense from a non-American perspective, but as an American, January 6 was incredibly violent. I think some people forget that this isn't normal.
    • whythre 3y ago
      I am an American and I don’t think it was particularly violet. There were 4 deaths. Not 400 or 40 (not like I wanted there to be more). But pearl clutching over some people protesting where they shouldn’t have when Congress wasn’t in session is just silly.
      • katbyte 3y ago
        violent != deadly? seemed pretty violent at times, but it wasn't deadly
        • hydrok9 3y ago
          as far as coups go, this one was pretty tame
      • TMWNN 3y ago
        >I am an American and I don’t think it was particularly violet. There were 4 deaths. There was one death. One. An unarmed rioter named Ashly Babbit who was shot by Capitol Police well after the riot's start. One Capitol Police member, Officer Sicknick, died of a stroke the day afterwards, but the coroner specifically looked for signs of his either being hit on the head, or exposed to tear gas, as causes, and concluded that neither was true. Had Capitol Police as a whole done their job and used their training and weapons to stop the invaders in the first place, a great deal of trouble would have been avoided while more rioters would have been shot (which I have no problem with). Why they did not do their job is something that I trust will be answered one day.
    • madengr 3y ago
      [dead]
    • TheDudeMan 3y ago
      How many people were killed or injured?
      • cyberge99 3y ago
        Six killed. Numerous injured.
        • Asooka 3y ago
          Where are you getting "six killed" from? AFAIK there was one death and that was a protestor shot by a cop.
    • hasty_pudding 3y ago
      It's how America became a country. They violated all the norms of England.
  • asfdgionio 3y ago
    >There was no attempt at rallying armed forces in a coup d’etat. What are you talking about? There most certainly was, and a successful one at that. The mob had firearms and pipe bombs and a wide variety of melee weapons. They smashed their way into the building. Rioters intended to hold lawmakers captive and planned to execute the vice president. Several people died. The sitting president led a mob to levy war against the United States. The fact that it was ineffective doesn't matter.
    • eastbound 3y ago
      > several people died Care to list which side the people were killed? And were they armed?
      • asfdgionio 3y ago
        One Union boy died, unfortunately, but we gave better than we got! The people who were shot were killed to defend the capitol and were given ample warning. Ashley Babbitt, for instance, was trying to break down a door.
        • friend_and_foe 3y ago
          How did he die? There was only one person shot.
          • TMWNN 3y ago
            >How did he die? I love how when I ask that same question, people like asdfgionio [1] obviously do a quick search and find (contrary to what they were told immediately afterwards) that no Capitol police was, in fact, killed during the riot. They either shut up or try to double down. I then point to Officer Sicknick's autopsy results and that usually gets them to shut up. [1] Who I can only describe, based on his comment, as a Union Army LARPer; "We", indeed. (Actual war reenactors go to great lengths to get the uniforms, gear, and battles right; I doubt asdfgionio has ever seen a battlefield not published by EA.) I've seen several other such instances, of Redditors and such bravely proclaiming how "they" will lead another Sherman's march through states that commit the unpardonable sin of voting for the wrong candidate.
  • SpaceL10n 3y ago
    Mobs of people storming the Capitol is a violation of norms. Are you sure you are okay?
    • AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      wizardrobe didn't say it wasn't a violation of norms. Said it wasn't the first violation of norms. (Mind you, I don't know what specific previous violations wizardrobe had it mind...) It's like, in Rome, Caesar wasn't the first violation of norms. The Gracchi were. Then came Marius and Sulla. Sulla restored the norms and retired - but the precedent of violating the norms had already been set. 19 years later came the first triumvirate. 11 years after that came the civil war.
    • rayiner 3y ago
      This is America. This shit happens. A mob just tried to storm the White House last month: https://www.jpost.com/international/article-771751 https://www.jpost.com/international/article-771751. The Capitol just happens to have no real security (it never had—my wife used to sneak into the Congressional subway system all the time). It’s been bombed at least twice.
      • dctoedt 3y ago
        So you're equating a few outliers trying to get attention, with an armed mob of thousands — summoned, dispatched, and then egged on by the sitting POTUS. JFC.
        • nec4b 3y ago
          Are you trying to say if only a few outliers bomb a building is somehow ok? Or because they were far left terrorist its nothing to worry about?
          • dctoedt 3y ago
            > Are you trying to say if only a few outliers bomb a building is somehow ok? No. That's false-dichotomy thinking, along the lines of, "It HAS to be either A or B, and it's not B, so it MUST be A." > Or because they were far left terrorist its nothing to worry about? No. They're both bad. But: 1. The BLM rioting was mostly spontaneous and rag-tag, whereas Jan. 6 was orchestrated by the then-Commander in Chief of the U.S. armed forces, aided and abetted by his acolytes in and out of government (including outsiders such as the Proud Boys); and 2. The societal risks to democratic governance differed enormously. Unlike the BLM rioting, Jan. 6 could conceivably have played out like the October Revolution in the Russia of 1917, where an armed Leninist minority seized power and displaced the Kerensky provisional government that had itself taken control in the wake of the February Revolution. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution
  • tenpies 3y ago
    I think people also forget that before January 6th we literally had: * Separatist movements from Antifa and the Left set up autonomous zones within US cities[1]. * Multiple calls for violence from prominent Democrats and other Leftists towards Republican politicians, judges, and a sitting US President [2] * Billions of damage and looting by Antifa and BLM [3] * Multiple Antifa and BLM attacks on Federal buildings, including courthouses [4] I could go on for quite a while, but my point is that any of these events alone is comparable to January 6th. It would have been unimaginable to a 2000s American that any of these things not only take place, but were allowed and even encouraged by a major US political party. All of these were more violent, damaging, and should carry much stronger legal consequences for the separatists, terrorists, and perpetrators; but because the Democrat-backed groups did it, it is barely even remembered. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG5BcU1ZGiA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG5BcU1ZGiA [3] https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots-cost-property-damage https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots-cost-property-damage - this is just for the May to June of 2020 time period. [4] https://www.justice.gov/usao-nv/pr/five-individuals-face-federal-charges-damaging-us-courthouse-during-may-30-2020-protest https://www.justice.gov/usao-nv/pr/five-individuals-face-fed... and https://www.opb.org/article/2021/03/12/protesters-vandalize-portlands-federal-courthouse-again/ https://www.opb.org/article/2021/03/12/protesters-vandalize-... but there are more.
    • CamperBob2 3y ago
      It's one thing when some local agitators stir up shit and torch a Starbucks or whatever. It's another thing entirely when the President does it. (Which I'm sure you'd be braying from the hilltops, had the President in question been named Clinton or Biden or Obama.)
      • SamReidHughes 3y ago
        [flagged]
        • CamperBob2 3y ago
  • CamperBob2 3y ago
    It's the closest thing we've seen to the Beer Hall Putsch, an event that was also so ineptly-orchestrated as to appear comical to many, that had no immediate effect on most peoples' daily lives, and that also led to grossly inadequate punishment for the perpetrators.
    • Wytwwww 3y ago
      > we've seen to the Beer Hall Putsch, Possibly. But the Beer Hall Putsch was a (relatively) highly organized attempt by a militarized organization to a achieve some very specific goals (even though the coup attempt itself was a complete failure since it only took the army a couple of hours to stop it). It wasn't even necessarily such a big deal at the time, the nazis remained an insufficient fringe party for years (until the Great Depression hit). IMHO Jan 6th was a lot closer to something like the "13 Vendémiaire" just of course with no Napoleon, much lower scale and a lot less violent. In the sense that it was a generic insurrection than an actual coup attempt.
      • CamperBob2 3y ago
        But the Beer Hall Putsch was a (relatively) highly organized attempt by a militarized organization to a achieve some very specific goals (even though the coup attempt itself was a complete failure since it only took the army a couple of hours to stop it). It wasn't even necessarily such a big deal at the time, the nazis remained an insufficient fringe party for years (until the Great Depression hit). It seems like you meant to start that sentence with "And" rather than "But." January 6 was organized at the highest levels of the executive branch, which is in command of the US military. We can thank our lucky stars that the executive branch was populated by bumbling fools at the time, and that no major economic crisis was in play. But these factors won't always work in our favor as Americans. It's hard to avoid seeing a disturbing resemblance between the Brown Shirts and groups like the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys. Enrique Tarrio and Ernst Röhm would have a lot to talk about if you locked them in the same cell. They were both betrayed by the personality cults they fought for... which, after all, were chartered to eliminate people like them.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• jojobas 3y ago
  Oh sure, Goths, plagues and total moral decay were not the reason, the debt crisis was.
• serf 3y ago
  >Timing was pretty bang on if you consider Jan 6th as a turning point of all the things happening around that same time-frame, the Jan 6th events seem to have been some of the least impactful, aside from just being a huge talking point in these type of "world is decaying" conversations the media decided to report on that event in such a way as to draw more outrage than the other stuff -- but looking back the other stuff seems to have created a larger last impact; BLM/lock-down/pandemic/WFH/disaster-recession/George Floyd/Rittenhouse/social-distancing, just about any affect of that time period seems to have created deeper scars than the Jan 6th stuff. now, Jan 6th stuff drew a lot of public outrage -- the sanctity of the office and so on and so fourth -- but real social and physical trauma that has lasted into today? There were more important events during that time-frame in that regard, personal opinion. If you're just counting physical violence/death/injury then there are more severe events to consider unless we're weighing stuff like "a politician's life is more valuable than a bystander" type rationalization. and to be clear : i'm not even debating the whole fall-of-Rome premise, i'm just saying that as an individual that witnessed this whole history it feels as if there was greater chinks in the armor than the Jan 6th events.
  • ethanbond 3y ago
    > now, Jan 6th stuff drew a lot of public outrage -- the sanctity of the office and so on and so fourth -- but real social and physical trauma that has lasted into today? There were more important events during that time-frame in that regard, personal opinion. You should listen to some Constitutional law folks talk about this stuff. We are crashing headlong into a legitimate constitutional crisis because of January 6 and the resultant cases.
    • AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      Honestly, these responses have been staggeringly depressing
  • vharuck 3y ago
    It's unfair to compare the single event on January 6th with every BLM protest, or every state's implementation of lockdown and the resulting clashes, etc. I'm appalled by January 6th because the representative for my district accepted his win in the November elections, went to D.C., and then voted to throw out all votes for my state as being dubious. The riot, building-storming, and literal lynch mob were the natural outcomes of months of cynical choices by politicians to control the government in spite of democratic elections. It's not a thing to let slide.
• qwytw 3y ago
  Except it was the civil war that caused a debt crisis in Ancient Rome and not the other way around. Repaying debts is somewhat hard when most of your productive assets are destroyed or completely devastated. Debt forgiveness was a common in such cases because back then government didn't really have any other monetary policy tools or ways to stimulate the economy.