5 ms·

while 1/2 of french is imported and mangled latin. so where did english borrow from really? given that it’s easier to figure out the latin roots of the angliciz

while 1/2 of french is imported and mangled latin. so where did english borrow from really? given that it’s easier to figure out the latin roots of the anglicized?

ekianjo 3y ago
The normand invasion of England and political control for 400 years changed the English language for sure. The medieval English and the modern English are completely different. Medieval French and modern French, not so much.
- gerdesj 3y ago
  I'm not sure what 400 years of Norman political control really means. There was an invasion of England in 1066 by William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy, which ended up with King William I of England. Subsequent monarchs of England/bits of France were no longer Normans per se. At least one variety of a French language at the time was introduced, wholesale, and became the court language of England. Latin of course remained the really "important" language of the Church and increasingly the law. There are roughly three named "ages" of English (in England): old, middle and modern. I can just about understand written middle English and have severe problems with old English. Modern English can be very flexible, which is probably why it has become popular as a lingua franca. There are no real noun genders. Word order can be fiddled with mercilessly too. Officially, English sentences are subject - verb - object (SVO) for example: "I sat on the bed". You can say "I the bed sat on" or "On the bed sat I" or "sat I on the bed" and it still works fine. Most of those variants are regionally correct, somewhere. English spelling is an absolute nightmare! Linking pronunciation to spelling is absolutely awful. I can completely understand English as a second language speakers throwing their hands up in the air and declaring the whole thing as complete bollocks! However, that means that we are extraordinarily tolerent of speling mistaks. field or feild? sealed or ceiled? Who nose!
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > Modern English can be very flexible, which is probably why it has become popular as a lingua franca. You have the causality backwards here. > Word order can be fiddled with mercilessly too. Officially, English sentences are subject - verb - object (SVO) for example: "I sat on the bed". You can say "I the bed sat on" or "On the bed sat I" or "sat I on the bed" and it still works fine. This is just incorrect.
    - yawboakye 3y ago
      the rare forms/orders are allowed for the purposes of literature and other forms of art. the grammar of the modern english language and its gradual adoption through intellectual training was intentionally done. it was necessary in order to (1) elevate english to the level of latin and french, and hence (2) be a suitable tool for both art and intellectual writings. that was the only way it could unseat french and become the dominant language fit for all purposes.
  - kergonath 3y ago
    > There was an invasion of England in 1066 by William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy, which ended up with King William I of England. Subsequent monarchs of England/bits of France were no longer Normans per se. At least one variety of a French language at the time was introduced, wholesale, and became the court language of England. There was more than that. For a while, England was a backwater of the Angevin empire and kings of England were native French speakers for quite a long time.
- yawboakye 3y ago
  how did the normand invasion change the language? is there a study you could reference? did they influence the structure of the language itself or their language became a source of loan words? or what really happened?
felipelemos 3y ago
French, as a romance language did not import from Latin as English did not import from proto germanic.
- yawboakye 3y ago
  and french as a germanic language? because french is a germanic language too.
  - samus 3y ago
    French has a few Germanic loan words, but is most certainly not a Germanic language.
    - Exoristos 3y ago
      The Germanic vocabulary in French is surprisingly as high as 40–45%, as Fernand Braudel pointed out. French is kind of a hybrid.
      - samus 3y ago
        That seems like a rather high amount. According to the statistics from Wikipedia it's more like 40-45% of all loanwords, of which French admittedly has quite a few. Crucially, the vocabulary that makes up its grammatical core is overwhelmingly of Romance origin.
        yawboakye 3y ago
        what makes a language isn’t the core vocabulary but, crucially, the syntax structure. when you say ‘je suis malade’ instead of ‘suis malade’ that’s the germanic roots of french mandating the structure. latin loan words don’t make a language romantic.
        samus 3y ago
        French is indeed a notable exception in that regard. However, the rest of the grammar structure is still overwhelmingly of Romance origin. This and some other odd things can indeed be explained because of the ancient Franks picking up the language of the people they ruled over, but incompletely so.

while 1/2 of french is imported and mangled latin. so where did english borrow from really? given that it’s easier to figure out the latin roots of the anglicized?

ekianjo 3y ago

The normand invasion of England and political control for 400 years changed the English language for sure. The medieval English and the modern English are completely different. Medieval French and modern French, not so much.

gerdesj 3y ago
I'm not sure what 400 years of Norman political control really means. There was an invasion of England in 1066 by William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy, which ended up with King William I of England. Subsequent monarchs of England/bits of France were no longer Normans per se. At least one variety of a French language at the time was introduced, wholesale, and became the court language of England. Latin of course remained the really "important" language of the Church and increasingly the law. There are roughly three named "ages" of English (in England): old, middle and modern. I can just about understand written middle English and have severe problems with old English. Modern English can be very flexible, which is probably why it has become popular as a lingua franca. There are no real noun genders. Word order can be fiddled with mercilessly too. Officially, English sentences are subject - verb - object (SVO) for example: "I sat on the bed". You can say "I the bed sat on" or "On the bed sat I" or "sat I on the bed" and it still works fine. Most of those variants are regionally correct, somewhere. English spelling is an absolute nightmare! Linking pronunciation to spelling is absolutely awful. I can completely understand English as a second language speakers throwing their hands up in the air and declaring the whole thing as complete bollocks! However, that means that we are extraordinarily tolerent of speling mistaks. field or feild? sealed or ceiled? Who nose!
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > Modern English can be very flexible, which is probably why it has become popular as a lingua franca. You have the causality backwards here. > Word order can be fiddled with mercilessly too. Officially, English sentences are subject - verb - object (SVO) for example: "I sat on the bed". You can say "I the bed sat on" or "On the bed sat I" or "sat I on the bed" and it still works fine. This is just incorrect.
  - yawboakye 3y ago
    the rare forms/orders are allowed for the purposes of literature and other forms of art. the grammar of the modern english language and its gradual adoption through intellectual training was intentionally done. it was necessary in order to (1) elevate english to the level of latin and french, and hence (2) be a suitable tool for both art and intellectual writings. that was the only way it could unseat french and become the dominant language fit for all purposes.
- kergonath 3y ago
  > There was an invasion of England in 1066 by William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy, which ended up with King William I of England. Subsequent monarchs of England/bits of France were no longer Normans per se. At least one variety of a French language at the time was introduced, wholesale, and became the court language of England. There was more than that. For a while, England was a backwater of the Angevin empire and kings of England were native French speakers for quite a long time.
yawboakye 3y ago
how did the normand invasion change the language? is there a study you could reference? did they influence the structure of the language itself or their language became a source of loan words? or what really happened?

felipelemos 3y ago

French, as a romance language did not import from Latin as English did not import from proto germanic.

yawboakye 3y ago
and french as a germanic language? because french is a germanic language too.
- samus 3y ago
  French has a few Germanic loan words, but is most certainly not a Germanic language.
  - Exoristos 3y ago
    The Germanic vocabulary in French is surprisingly as high as 40–45%, as Fernand Braudel pointed out. French is kind of a hybrid.
    - samus 3y ago
      That seems like a rather high amount. According to the statistics from Wikipedia it's more like 40-45% of all loanwords, of which French admittedly has quite a few. Crucially, the vocabulary that makes up its grammatical core is overwhelmingly of Romance origin.
      - yawboakye 3y ago
        what makes a language isn’t the core vocabulary but, crucially, the syntax structure. when you say ‘je suis malade’ instead of ‘suis malade’ that’s the germanic roots of french mandating the structure. latin loan words don’t make a language romantic.
        samus 3y ago
        French is indeed a notable exception in that regard. However, the rest of the grammar structure is still overwhelmingly of Romance origin. This and some other odd things can indeed be explained because of the ancient Franks picking up the language of the people they ruled over, but incompletely so.