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There's a straightforward line of reasoning for the benefit of any children if they exist: divorce is highly disruptive for the child, and should not be availab

There's a straightforward line of reasoning for the benefit of any children if they exist: divorce is highly disruptive for the child, and should not be available except under extreme circumstances for much the same reason why people are forced to pay child support today. Likewise, one could imagine forcing marriage upon people for the benefit of any children born out of wedlock. In fact, society could much more readily support children financially than it can provide a missing parent, so if anything it's a bit strange that we allow divorce or absent parents but require financial support.

motohagiography 3y ago
This effect on a child aggregates up too. The result is a tribe/society issue of unguided kids who don't benefit from the stability, specialization, opportunity, and generational progress provided by a nuclear family. That said, however, if we use catholic countries as an example baseline for any implied evolutionary effect of forbidding divorce - they don't do too well against protestant nations, and particularly vs. anglicanism which was founded on divorce. British colonies vs. catholic Spanish and Portuguese colonies fair much better. Maybe marriage is a net positive, and the remarriage from divorce helps humans iterate faster.
pavel_lishin 3y ago
An unamicable divorce can certainly be bad, but don't under-estimate how bad it is for a child to grow up in a marriage where both partners hate each other, but can't leave. Forcing marriage seems like a terrible way to achieve the same thing.
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  It's actually amicable divorces which would most obviously be banned under such a justification. You're basically signaling to the child "I didn't hate your other parent, wasn't being abused, etc. I'm just choosing to abandon my family (you)". Similar reasoning could justify adultery being a crime against your children.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Correct.
- rayiner 3y ago
  This is something Americans say, but we have empirical data that it’s not true. Compare poor Asian Americans, who have very low divorce rates (similar to rich Asians), to poor whites, who have very high divorce rates. Poor Asian kids have double or triple the chance of becoming upper middle class as adults compared to poor whites. Mormons, another group that emphasizes family stability, also have much higher economic mobility than other whites. As Charlie Munger used to say: figure out what works and then do it. My parents are Asians who don’t get along, while my wife’s parents are white people who have been divorced three times each. Her parents are happier, but my life was easier and opportunities came much more readily. Divorce is a great way to turn a solidly middle class family into two financially struggling families, disrupt kids’ education, extra-curricular activities, social circles, etc. And it doesn’t end when the kids grow up, because that strain of financial resources continues into adulthood when parents come to depend on children. Americans are rich enough where imposing those costs on their kids isn’t fatal. But imagine you’re in a third world village, and at the edge of survival to begin with. Your mom and dad are “no longer in love.” Dad leaves, and the mom and kids starve to death immediately. That’s why most traditional societies have strong norms against divorce.
  - exolymph 3y ago
    > Compare poor Asian Americans, who have very low divorce rates (similar to rich Asians), to poor whites, who have very high divorce rates. Poor Asian kids have double or triple the chance of becoming upper middle class as adults compared to poor whites. I'm not pro-divorce, but it's difficult to isolate just one variable here. There are numerous other cultural differences.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      But attitudes about family are the thing Mormons and various Asian groups have in common, while diverging on most other respects.
      - zztop44 3y ago
        “Various Asian groups” don’t have attitudes about family in common with even each other. Do you think Koreans and Filipinos (for example) think about family the same way? Being the child of a first generation migrant seems to be good for social mobility. Being part of a exclusive clique with entrenched access to elite power might help too. Probably there are many factors.

motohagiography 3y ago

This effect on a child aggregates up too. The result is a tribe/society issue of unguided kids who don't benefit from the stability, specialization, opportunity, and generational progress provided by a nuclear family. That said, however, if we use catholic countries as an example baseline for any implied evolutionary effect of forbidding divorce - they don't do too well against protestant nations, and particularly vs. anglicanism which was founded on divorce. British colonies vs. catholic Spanish and Portuguese colonies fair much better. Maybe marriage is a net positive, and the remarriage from divorce helps humans iterate faster.

pavel_lishin 3y ago

An unamicable divorce can certainly be bad, but don't under-estimate how bad it is for a child to grow up in a marriage where both partners hate each other, but can't leave. Forcing marriage seems like a terrible way to achieve the same thing.

ndriscoll 3y ago
It's actually amicable divorces which would most obviously be banned under such a justification. You're basically signaling to the child "I didn't hate your other parent, wasn't being abused, etc. I'm just choosing to abandon my family (you)". Similar reasoning could justify adultery being a crime against your children.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Correct.
rayiner 3y ago
This is something Americans say, but we have empirical data that it’s not true. Compare poor Asian Americans, who have very low divorce rates (similar to rich Asians), to poor whites, who have very high divorce rates. Poor Asian kids have double or triple the chance of becoming upper middle class as adults compared to poor whites. Mormons, another group that emphasizes family stability, also have much higher economic mobility than other whites. As Charlie Munger used to say: figure out what works and then do it. My parents are Asians who don’t get along, while my wife’s parents are white people who have been divorced three times each. Her parents are happier, but my life was easier and opportunities came much more readily. Divorce is a great way to turn a solidly middle class family into two financially struggling families, disrupt kids’ education, extra-curricular activities, social circles, etc. And it doesn’t end when the kids grow up, because that strain of financial resources continues into adulthood when parents come to depend on children. Americans are rich enough where imposing those costs on their kids isn’t fatal. But imagine you’re in a third world village, and at the edge of survival to begin with. Your mom and dad are “no longer in love.” Dad leaves, and the mom and kids starve to death immediately. That’s why most traditional societies have strong norms against divorce.
- exolymph 3y ago
  > Compare poor Asian Americans, who have very low divorce rates (similar to rich Asians), to poor whites, who have very high divorce rates. Poor Asian kids have double or triple the chance of becoming upper middle class as adults compared to poor whites. I'm not pro-divorce, but it's difficult to isolate just one variable here. There are numerous other cultural differences.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    But attitudes about family are the thing Mormons and various Asian groups have in common, while diverging on most other respects.
    - zztop44 3y ago
      “Various Asian groups” don’t have attitudes about family in common with even each other. Do you think Koreans and Filipinos (for example) think about family the same way? Being the child of a first generation migrant seems to be good for social mobility. Being part of a exclusive clique with entrenched access to elite power might help too. Probably there are many factors.