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> Something is lost today by most kids being removed from hard work, I think. I'm not sure I agree. The work was hard and you didn't get anywhere. You worked

by bsder 3y ago

> Something is lost today by most kids being removed from hard work, I think. I'm not sure I agree. The work was hard and you didn't get anywhere. You worked the farm, the mill, the mine, etc. just like your father did and his father did. You didn't get rich. You didn't even get comfortable. You were still poor, and your children were going to remain poor. The window where labor unions made mill, mine, and factory jobs something livable was quite short--1960 to 1980, roughly. Yeah, shitty, excruciating work was a good way to beat you kid over the head with "go find ANYTHING else to do as a career." Worked for my dad. Worked for Joe Namath's dad. etc. Not sure I count that as anything "being lost" though.

chrisco255 3y ago
> The window where labor unions made mill, mine, and factory jobs something livable was quite short--1960 to 1980, roughly. I'm sorry, what? What do you think 2023 mills, mines, and factories look like in the United States? Here's a tour of a wheat mill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYP6AnNQjNo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYP6AnNQjNo Here's a modern coal mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwo3slH1wsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwo3slH1wsk And here's a modern factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9kK0_7x08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9kK0_7x08
- bsder 3y ago
  However, those quite a bit better places only employ a small fraction of the number of people of yore and require quite a bit more education thanks to automation. For example: the Natrona Heights steel mill now employs roughly 100 people on a shift vs when it employed somewhere between 5000-10000 on a shift. Automation killed a ton of employment. Those are the kind of jobs I am talking about. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to bring all those jobs back. They were terrible jobs. However, claiming that working those kinds of jobs somehow makes people better is quite suspect, at best.
  - chrisco255 3y ago
    Ok, OP's argument was about workplace conditions, not low employment numbers, and they claimed that conditions stopped being good around 1980 with no evidence to back it up. We are at less than 4% unemployment so it's a very good thing we don't need 100x more workers to do things the way we did them 100 years ago. I will say, I'm a 100% knowledge worker, and work from a laptop, but hard labor is good for you (within reason). We have all sorts of illnesses and obesity in modern society because our bodies were built for stamina that we no longer make use of.
briHass 3y ago
If nothing else, it should humble you and make you appreciate how lucky 'you' are now to have found and be good at one of few remaining white-collar jobs that pay well. That list of high paying jobs is shrinking rapidly, and it's pretty reasonable to think that in 20 years, software engineers are going to be the miners/mill-workers of the previous generation.
- khazhoux 3y ago
  Yes, it is very important that people feel guilty about having good jobs
  - DontchaKnowit 3y ago
    What? They were talking about gratitude not guilt

by bsder 3y ago

chrisco255 3y ago

> The window where labor unions made mill, mine, and factory jobs something livable was quite short--1960 to 1980, roughly. I'm sorry, what? What do you think 2023 mills, mines, and factories look like in the United States? Here's a tour of a wheat mill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYP6AnNQjNo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYP6AnNQjNo Here's a modern coal mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwo3slH1wsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwo3slH1wsk And here's a modern factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9kK0_7x08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9kK0_7x08

bsder 3y ago
However, those quite a bit better places only employ a small fraction of the number of people of yore and require quite a bit more education thanks to automation. For example: the Natrona Heights steel mill now employs roughly 100 people on a shift vs when it employed somewhere between 5000-10000 on a shift. Automation killed a ton of employment. Those are the kind of jobs I am talking about. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to bring all those jobs back. They were terrible jobs. However, claiming that working those kinds of jobs somehow makes people better is quite suspect, at best.
- chrisco255 3y ago
  Ok, OP's argument was about workplace conditions, not low employment numbers, and they claimed that conditions stopped being good around 1980 with no evidence to back it up. We are at less than 4% unemployment so it's a very good thing we don't need 100x more workers to do things the way we did them 100 years ago. I will say, I'm a 100% knowledge worker, and work from a laptop, but hard labor is good for you (within reason). We have all sorts of illnesses and obesity in modern society because our bodies were built for stamina that we no longer make use of.

briHass 3y ago

If nothing else, it should humble you and make you appreciate how lucky 'you' are now to have found and be good at one of few remaining white-collar jobs that pay well. That list of high paying jobs is shrinking rapidly, and it's pretty reasonable to think that in 20 years, software engineers are going to be the miners/mill-workers of the previous generation.

khazhoux 3y ago
Yes, it is very important that people feel guilty about having good jobs
- DontchaKnowit 3y ago
  What? They were talking about gratitude not guilt