3 ms·

NIF is thinly veiled fusion weapons test research, nothing more. There's no real intention for advances in energy generation research. If it happens it's more a

by sgift 3y ago

NIF is thinly veiled fusion weapons test research, nothing more. There's no real intention for advances in energy generation research. If it happens it's more an accident or part of the 'cover'.

eesmith 3y ago
It isn't even that veiled. The article points out: 'The NIF was designed not as a power plant, but as a facility to recreate and study the reactions that occur during thermonuclear detonations after the United States halted underground weapons testing in 1992. The higher fusion yields are already being used to advance nuclear-weapons research, and have also fuelled enthusiasm about fusion as a limitless source of clean energy.'
- DennisP 3y ago
  However, whatever the situation was before, the DOE recently made fusion power research officially part of their mission. https://www.ans.org/news/article-5611/three-new-inertial-fusion-energy-hubs-have-distinct-laserfocused-missions/ https://www.ans.org/news/article-5611/three-new-inertial-fus...
  - eesmith 3y ago
    Sure, but how does that veil the weapons component, even lightly? I mean, an early Python conference was held at LLNL (1996?), but surely that didn't veil that LLNL is a nuclear weapons lab.
    - DennisP 3y ago
      As you pointed out, it's not veiled at all. And why should it be? We openly spend vast sums on nuclear weapons and people are fine with it. But also, if they already have a weapons research facility and for a little extra money they can also research power production, why not do that?
      - eesmith 3y ago
        Because my response was an objection to sgift's comment "NIF is thinly veiled fusion weapons test research" and I wasn't expecting a change in topic.
        sgift 3y ago
        It's my fault to have brought up the term "veil". To expand where I'm coming from: I think that they even talk about it in the context of energy research is a veil, cause I don't see any way how this will ever be used for it. IMHO, it's only useful for weapons research. But maybe it's just a lack of fantasy on my part and it is possible (in a useful way, not possible in a "we could do this, but it's so blatantly stupid, why would anyone ever think we'd do it?" way).
        eesmith 3y ago
        I know essentially nothing about the field. I can imagine how it might be used to understand how plasma works, and how to measure plasma activity, specifically in the domain appropriate for fusion reaction instead of thermonuclear weapons, might be relevant. I conjecture this because I read about how knowledge from thermonuclear weapons development helped inform our understanding about how fusion works in stars, even though the experiments themselves were secret. The story was of a Soviet astrophysicist visiting the US. He gave a lecture about stellar processes. A US grad student asked him afterward about one step in the process, something like "how do you know the plasma is transparent to X-rays?". The Soviet scientist said simply "it is." The US student, confused about it, asked his US advisor, who informed the student that it meant the Soviets figured it out as part of research for H-bomb development. I don't have a primary source for it though. As a possible parallel, Shepard's suborbital flight used a Redstone ballistic missile, modified to make it human rated. Space flight and space telescopes are closely intertwined with missile technology and espionage/surveillance.
        DennisP 3y ago
        Here's a NYTimes article about six companies attempting laser fusion for power production. At least two have personnel from NIF. One uses an approach similar to NIF's but with modern lasers, and a couple others use a different type of laser that removes the need for the hohlraum. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/science/laser-fusion-energy-start-ups.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/science/laser-fusion-ener... https://archive.is/BCsf5 https://archive.is/BCsf5 Also it says "A decade ago, a report by the National Academy of Sciences found much to like in the energy potential of laser fusion but recommended that the United States hold off major investments until ignition was achieved. That time is now." Here is the NAS report: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18289/chapter/1#xv https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18289/chapter/1#xv
DennisP 3y ago
We openly spend a hundred times as much money on nuclear weapons as we do on fusion research. There's no need for a "cover."

by sgift 3y ago

NIF is thinly veiled fusion weapons test research, nothing more. There's no real intention for advances in energy generation research. If it happens it's more an accident or part of the 'cover'.

eesmith 3y ago

It isn't even that veiled. The article points out: 'The NIF was designed not as a power plant, but as a facility to recreate and study the reactions that occur during thermonuclear detonations after the United States halted underground weapons testing in 1992. The higher fusion yields are already being used to advance nuclear-weapons research, and have also fuelled enthusiasm about fusion as a limitless source of clean energy.'

DennisP 3y ago
However, whatever the situation was before, the DOE recently made fusion power research officially part of their mission. https://www.ans.org/news/article-5611/three-new-inertial-fusion-energy-hubs-have-distinct-laserfocused-missions/ https://www.ans.org/news/article-5611/three-new-inertial-fus...
- eesmith 3y ago
  Sure, but how does that veil the weapons component, even lightly? I mean, an early Python conference was held at LLNL (1996?), but surely that didn't veil that LLNL is a nuclear weapons lab.
  - DennisP 3y ago
    As you pointed out, it's not veiled at all. And why should it be? We openly spend vast sums on nuclear weapons and people are fine with it. But also, if they already have a weapons research facility and for a little extra money they can also research power production, why not do that?
    - eesmith 3y ago
      Because my response was an objection to sgift's comment "NIF is thinly veiled fusion weapons test research" and I wasn't expecting a change in topic.
      - sgift 3y ago
        It's my fault to have brought up the term "veil". To expand where I'm coming from: I think that they even talk about it in the context of energy research is a veil, cause I don't see any way how this will ever be used for it. IMHO, it's only useful for weapons research. But maybe it's just a lack of fantasy on my part and it is possible (in a useful way, not possible in a "we could do this, but it's so blatantly stupid, why would anyone ever think we'd do it?" way).
        eesmith 3y ago
        I know essentially nothing about the field. I can imagine how it might be used to understand how plasma works, and how to measure plasma activity, specifically in the domain appropriate for fusion reaction instead of thermonuclear weapons, might be relevant. I conjecture this because I read about how knowledge from thermonuclear weapons development helped inform our understanding about how fusion works in stars, even though the experiments themselves were secret. The story was of a Soviet astrophysicist visiting the US. He gave a lecture about stellar processes. A US grad student asked him afterward about one step in the process, something like "how do you know the plasma is transparent to X-rays?". The Soviet scientist said simply "it is." The US student, confused about it, asked his US advisor, who informed the student that it meant the Soviets figured it out as part of research for H-bomb development. I don't have a primary source for it though. As a possible parallel, Shepard's suborbital flight used a Redstone ballistic missile, modified to make it human rated. Space flight and space telescopes are closely intertwined with missile technology and espionage/surveillance.
        DennisP 3y ago
        Here's a NYTimes article about six companies attempting laser fusion for power production. At least two have personnel from NIF. One uses an approach similar to NIF's but with modern lasers, and a couple others use a different type of laser that removes the need for the hohlraum. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/science/laser-fusion-energy-start-ups.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/science/laser-fusion-ener... https://archive.is/BCsf5 https://archive.is/BCsf5 Also it says "A decade ago, a report by the National Academy of Sciences found much to like in the energy potential of laser fusion but recommended that the United States hold off major investments until ignition was achieved. That time is now." Here is the NAS report: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18289/chapter/1#xv https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18289/chapter/1#xv

DennisP 3y ago

We openly spend a hundred times as much money on nuclear weapons as we do on fusion research. There's no need for a "cover."