10 ms·

Helion's design seems way more promising than the NIF one which doesn't seem to have any clear path to being a "continuous" operation production design. Helion

Helion's design seems way more promising than the NIF one which doesn't seem to have any clear path to being a "continuous" operation production design. Helion's design also works essentially by brief inertial confinement, thereby avoiding the issues of Tomahawk continuous confinement designs. However, in the Helion design rather than having pellets of fuel which would need to be replaced for each shot, it uses injected gaseous fuel (deuterium + He-3) which is heated into two plasma "donuts" which are magnetically fired at each other to (together with brief magnetic compression) achieve fusion conditions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRaQLZaaHWo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRaQLZaaHWo Helion have a contract with Microsoft to build a production model for them (to power a datacenter) by 2028. https://www.helionenergy.com/articles/helion-announces-worlds-first-fusion-ppa-with-microsoft/ https://www.helionenergy.com/articles/helion-announces-world...

Nyubis 3y ago
By 2028, not 2008.
- carabiner 3y ago
  Enormous amounts of energy needed for the closed timelike curves to generate Kerr singularities with flux stored in a capacitor.
  - anonuser123456 3y ago
    My money is on the technology behind a flux capacitor maturing before Helion’s fusion tech.
- HarHarVeryFunny 3y ago
  Thanks - corrected.
KyleBerezin 3y ago
Like all fusion reactors in the world currently, NIF was made for research, not as a prototype for a power plant. As it stands, NIF is the only non-bomb fusion device to reach the fusion breakeven point. If we are ignoring the research angle though, and are appraising the potential for commercial power production, Helion's design has a similar issue to NIF. Where a tokamak and similar designs create constant power, NIF and Helion's design have to generate power from sequential nuclear explosions. However for the purpose of research, NIF is indispensable; We can finally see and measure the behavior of true power positive fusion (without setting off a bomb). edit: breakeven means the reaction put out more power than the fuel took in. It does not mean the plant as a whole puts out more power than it takes, we aren't even close to that.
- SkyMarshal 3y ago
  Helion’s design doesn’t require constant power, it’s not based on heating water into steam to turn a turbine. Rather, their reactor is the turbine, the sequential plasma ring collision fusion reactions generate a magnetic field that drives a current in wires coiled around the reactor. It’s rather ingenious and is the first reactor-based power source that generates electricity directly from the reaction itself, rather than from heating water into steam. I hope they’re able to achieve breakeven in their next prototype or two.
  - KyleBerezin 3y ago
    I'm excited to see what they can do, but its important to remember they are the only fusion device with a marketing department. Pulsed power generation would be a problem for any power plant, and its viability is predicated on its ability to reset rapidly. Helion needs to demonstrate their 12T compression ignition works, then need to demonstrate the reactor can reset quickly, and they need to demonstrate they can generate enough power from the expanding magnetic field. Its an awesome design, its just their marketing material has led people into believing we are on the verge of fusion power, which we are not. Also note, I am not against private companies competing, or marketing their product, just remember that it's not quite as great as they claim.
  - light_hue_1 3y ago
    I wish people would stop parroting Helion's obvious lie that they invented direct energy capture. These ideas are more than half a century old and have been tried before. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_energy_conversion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_energy_conversion I would have a lot more faith in Helion if they were more upfront instead of playing stupid games. If they're willing to bend the truth on this, I can believe they're lying about all sorts of other things. I suspect Helion will eventually have it's own Theranos moment.
    - DennisP 3y ago
      I've been following them for years and I've never seen them claim they invented DAC in general, just their particular device.
sgift 3y ago
NIF is thinly veiled fusion weapons test research, nothing more. There's no real intention for advances in energy generation research. If it happens it's more an accident or part of the 'cover'.
- eesmith 3y ago
  It isn't even that veiled. The article points out: 'The NIF was designed not as a power plant, but as a facility to recreate and study the reactions that occur during thermonuclear detonations after the United States halted underground weapons testing in 1992. The higher fusion yields are already being used to advance nuclear-weapons research, and have also fuelled enthusiasm about fusion as a limitless source of clean energy.'
  - DennisP 3y ago
    However, whatever the situation was before, the DOE recently made fusion power research officially part of their mission. https://www.ans.org/news/article-5611/three-new-inertial-fusion-energy-hubs-have-distinct-laserfocused-missions/ https://www.ans.org/news/article-5611/three-new-inertial-fus...
    - eesmith 3y ago
      Sure, but how does that veil the weapons component, even lightly? I mean, an early Python conference was held at LLNL (1996?), but surely that didn't veil that LLNL is a nuclear weapons lab.
      - DennisP 3y ago
        As you pointed out, it's not veiled at all. And why should it be? We openly spend vast sums on nuclear weapons and people are fine with it. But also, if they already have a weapons research facility and for a little extra money they can also research power production, why not do that?
        3y ago
credit_guy 3y ago
> to build a production model for them (to power a datacenter) by 2028. Helion is known to promise the pie in the sky, and soon. In [1] they tell you (in 2014) that they will have a "pilot plant operation in 2019". One year later, in 2015, they let you know in [2] that they will "start building commercial systems by 2022". [1] https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2014/07/helion-energy-plans-to-enable.html https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2014/07/helion-energy-plans-to... [2] https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/helion-energy-raised-109-million-and.html https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/helion-energy-raised-1...
- DennisP 3y ago
  Those older predictions were based on getting the necessary funding, which they didn't get until years later.
- wand3r 3y ago
  Honest question: How much of this is engineering and how much is regulation? Everyone overestimated development cycles but if there was 0 regulation and we lived in Ayn Rands' wet dream, do you think they could be close to delivering, or no?
  - light_hue_1 3y ago
    There's no regulation holding them back. They can do whatever they want. What regulation can possibly be in the way?
    - wand3r 3y ago
      Wow, is this really the case? They could go build a novel reactor without any regulatory oversight? I guess I'll look into this but honestly doesn't seem like it would be true for the US
      - DennisP 3y ago
        The situation was unclear for a while, but a few months ago the NRC decided to regulate fusion reactors like particle accelerators and hospital devices, rather than like fission reactors. It was a unanimous decision by the five commissioners.[1] According to the CEO of Helion, this essentially means they get regulated at the state level, in their case by the WA Department of Health.[2] A poorly-designed fission reactor can turn into Chernobyl. A poorly-designed fusion reactor just doesn't work. It's not the same level of risk at all. [1] https://www.fusionindustryassociation.org/nrc-decision-separates-fusion-energy-regulation-from-nuclear-fission/ https://www.fusionindustryassociation.org/nrc-decision-separ... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comments/18k8roi/age_of_miracles_the_fusion_episodes/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comments/18k8roi/age_of_mira...

Nyubis 3y ago

By 2028, not 2008.

carabiner 3y ago
Enormous amounts of energy needed for the closed timelike curves to generate Kerr singularities with flux stored in a capacitor.
- anonuser123456 3y ago
  My money is on the technology behind a flux capacitor maturing before Helion’s fusion tech.
HarHarVeryFunny 3y ago
Thanks - corrected.

KyleBerezin 3y ago

Like all fusion reactors in the world currently, NIF was made for research, not as a prototype for a power plant. As it stands, NIF is the only non-bomb fusion device to reach the fusion breakeven point. If we are ignoring the research angle though, and are appraising the potential for commercial power production, Helion's design has a similar issue to NIF. Where a tokamak and similar designs create constant power, NIF and Helion's design have to generate power from sequential nuclear explosions. However for the purpose of research, NIF is indispensable; We can finally see and measure the behavior of true power positive fusion (without setting off a bomb). edit: breakeven means the reaction put out more power than the fuel took in. It does not mean the plant as a whole puts out more power than it takes, we aren't even close to that.

SkyMarshal 3y ago
Helion’s design doesn’t require constant power, it’s not based on heating water into steam to turn a turbine. Rather, their reactor is the turbine, the sequential plasma ring collision fusion reactions generate a magnetic field that drives a current in wires coiled around the reactor. It’s rather ingenious and is the first reactor-based power source that generates electricity directly from the reaction itself, rather than from heating water into steam. I hope they’re able to achieve breakeven in their next prototype or two.
- KyleBerezin 3y ago
  I'm excited to see what they can do, but its important to remember they are the only fusion device with a marketing department. Pulsed power generation would be a problem for any power plant, and its viability is predicated on its ability to reset rapidly. Helion needs to demonstrate their 12T compression ignition works, then need to demonstrate the reactor can reset quickly, and they need to demonstrate they can generate enough power from the expanding magnetic field. Its an awesome design, its just their marketing material has led people into believing we are on the verge of fusion power, which we are not. Also note, I am not against private companies competing, or marketing their product, just remember that it's not quite as great as they claim.
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  I wish people would stop parroting Helion's obvious lie that they invented direct energy capture. These ideas are more than half a century old and have been tried before. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_energy_conversion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_energy_conversion I would have a lot more faith in Helion if they were more upfront instead of playing stupid games. If they're willing to bend the truth on this, I can believe they're lying about all sorts of other things. I suspect Helion will eventually have it's own Theranos moment.
  - DennisP 3y ago
    I've been following them for years and I've never seen them claim they invented DAC in general, just their particular device.

sgift 3y ago

NIF is thinly veiled fusion weapons test research, nothing more. There's no real intention for advances in energy generation research. If it happens it's more an accident or part of the 'cover'.

eesmith 3y ago
It isn't even that veiled. The article points out: 'The NIF was designed not as a power plant, but as a facility to recreate and study the reactions that occur during thermonuclear detonations after the United States halted underground weapons testing in 1992. The higher fusion yields are already being used to advance nuclear-weapons research, and have also fuelled enthusiasm about fusion as a limitless source of clean energy.'
- DennisP 3y ago
  However, whatever the situation was before, the DOE recently made fusion power research officially part of their mission. https://www.ans.org/news/article-5611/three-new-inertial-fusion-energy-hubs-have-distinct-laserfocused-missions/ https://www.ans.org/news/article-5611/three-new-inertial-fus...
  - eesmith 3y ago
    Sure, but how does that veil the weapons component, even lightly? I mean, an early Python conference was held at LLNL (1996?), but surely that didn't veil that LLNL is a nuclear weapons lab.
    - DennisP 3y ago
      As you pointed out, it's not veiled at all. And why should it be? We openly spend vast sums on nuclear weapons and people are fine with it. But also, if they already have a weapons research facility and for a little extra money they can also research power production, why not do that?
      - 3y ago

credit_guy 3y ago

> to build a production model for them (to power a datacenter) by 2028. Helion is known to promise the pie in the sky, and soon. In [1] they tell you (in 2014) that they will have a "pilot plant operation in 2019". One year later, in 2015, they let you know in [2] that they will "start building commercial systems by 2022". [1] https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2014/07/helion-energy-plans-to-enable.html https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2014/07/helion-energy-plans-to... [2] https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/helion-energy-raised-109-million-and.html https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/helion-energy-raised-1...

DennisP 3y ago
Those older predictions were based on getting the necessary funding, which they didn't get until years later.
wand3r 3y ago
Honest question: How much of this is engineering and how much is regulation? Everyone overestimated development cycles but if there was 0 regulation and we lived in Ayn Rands' wet dream, do you think they could be close to delivering, or no?
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  There's no regulation holding them back. They can do whatever they want. What regulation can possibly be in the way?
  - wand3r 3y ago
    Wow, is this really the case? They could go build a novel reactor without any regulatory oversight? I guess I'll look into this but honestly doesn't seem like it would be true for the US
    - DennisP 3y ago
      The situation was unclear for a while, but a few months ago the NRC decided to regulate fusion reactors like particle accelerators and hospital devices, rather than like fission reactors. It was a unanimous decision by the five commissioners.[1] According to the CEO of Helion, this essentially means they get regulated at the state level, in their case by the WA Department of Health.[2] A poorly-designed fission reactor can turn into Chernobyl. A poorly-designed fusion reactor just doesn't work. It's not the same level of risk at all. [1] https://www.fusionindustryassociation.org/nrc-decision-separates-fusion-energy-regulation-from-nuclear-fission/ https://www.fusionindustryassociation.org/nrc-decision-separ... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comments/18k8roi/age_of_miracles_the_fusion_episodes/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fusion/comments/18k8roi/age_of_mira...