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The EU/US, and Israel could have easily avoided this entire thing if their first act had been to immediately condemn Hammas at the UN Security Council, and call

The EU/US, and Israel could have easily avoided this entire thing if their first act had been to immediately condemn Hammas at the UN Security Council, and call for the immediate unconditional release of all hostages. All they needed was to show a little restraint instead of giving in to their revenge instinct. China and Russia are both hostile to Islamic terrorism. Nobody would have vetoed that resolution if Israel hasn't started immediately flattening Gaza. That is actually how Hamas would have lost its leg.

CubsFan1060 3y ago
I’m slightly confused. Are you saying that after October 7th a un resolution would have gotten hostages released and Hamas wouldn’t have attacked again?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Are you saying that after October 7th a un resolution would have gotten hostages released and Hamas wouldn’t have attacked again? No, but it would have looked good. That matters in international relations. The Arab world sees America as Israel’s surrogate; that makes it tough for Washington to e.g. strike a deal with Riyadh or Tehran to solve this Bab al-Mandan crisis.
Veraticus 3y ago
The UN has never censured Palestine, Gaza, or Hamas. Not even once — not as a response to any of the terrorist attacks against Israel or any of the intifadas. In fact, in response to the first intifada (which resulted in hundreds of Israeli civilian deaths) they censured Israel yet again. So I wouldn’t hold your breath for it to start happening now.
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  Can you name a single instance where Israel and the US went to the UNSC first before engaging in collective punishment? Just one example would be good.
  - Veraticus 3y ago
    Israel does not view its current military operation as collective punishment, so certainly it would not go to the UN and ask for its permission to do something it does not think it’s doing. Leaving your disingenuous framing aside, yes, Israel has brought complaints to the UN before. See: https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-complains-un-over-hezbollah-buildup-along-border?amp https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-complains-un-over-hezbol...
    - rjzzleep 3y ago
      I think the disingenuity is with you. Here is a quote from the current Israeli President Isaac Herzog: “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true" I asked you for an example of Israel and the US going to the UNSC first and only after that launching an excursion into Gaza. You respond with a complaint about Lebanon moving troops within its own borders. What was the expectation from the UNSC there? How does that relate to my question?
      - Veraticus 3y ago
        In what sense does your quote confirm that Israel is engaging in collective punishment? Israel believes it is rooting out Hamas and that there is an embedded civilian component to its operation (which is unequivocally true). This is the problem with taking three sentences out of someone’s mouth and deciding they support an idea as broad as “collective punishment.” Perhaps you should understand the context of his words before you use them? In any event, you asked for one time Israel brought a complaint to the UN and I provided it. Please don’t alter the goalposts you yourself set. What was the UN’s response? Was there an intervention? A censure of Hezbollah or Lebanon? An investigation?
        rjzzleep 3y ago
        What exactly is your ask here? To censure Lebanon for moving troops within inside its own country? And how does that relate to my question about Gaza.
areyousure 3y ago
In case anyone is curious, they are welcome to read the following UN Security Council resolution that was vetoed by both China and Russia: https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N23/320/92/PDF/N2332092.pdf https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N23/320/92/PDF...

CubsFan1060 3y ago

I’m slightly confused. Are you saying that after October 7th a un resolution would have gotten hostages released and Hamas wouldn’t have attacked again?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Are you saying that after October 7th a un resolution would have gotten hostages released and Hamas wouldn’t have attacked again? No, but it would have looked good. That matters in international relations. The Arab world sees America as Israel’s surrogate; that makes it tough for Washington to e.g. strike a deal with Riyadh or Tehran to solve this Bab al-Mandan crisis.

Veraticus 3y ago

The UN has never censured Palestine, Gaza, or Hamas. Not even once — not as a response to any of the terrorist attacks against Israel or any of the intifadas. In fact, in response to the first intifada (which resulted in hundreds of Israeli civilian deaths) they censured Israel yet again. So I wouldn’t hold your breath for it to start happening now.

rjzzleep 3y ago
Can you name a single instance where Israel and the US went to the UNSC first before engaging in collective punishment? Just one example would be good.
- Veraticus 3y ago
  Israel does not view its current military operation as collective punishment, so certainly it would not go to the UN and ask for its permission to do something it does not think it’s doing. Leaving your disingenuous framing aside, yes, Israel has brought complaints to the UN before. See: https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-complains-un-over-hezbollah-buildup-along-border?amp https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-complains-un-over-hezbol...
  - rjzzleep 3y ago
    I think the disingenuity is with you. Here is a quote from the current Israeli President Isaac Herzog: “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true" I asked you for an example of Israel and the US going to the UNSC first and only after that launching an excursion into Gaza. You respond with a complaint about Lebanon moving troops within its own borders. What was the expectation from the UNSC there? How does that relate to my question?
    - Veraticus 3y ago
      In what sense does your quote confirm that Israel is engaging in collective punishment? Israel believes it is rooting out Hamas and that there is an embedded civilian component to its operation (which is unequivocally true). This is the problem with taking three sentences out of someone’s mouth and deciding they support an idea as broad as “collective punishment.” Perhaps you should understand the context of his words before you use them? In any event, you asked for one time Israel brought a complaint to the UN and I provided it. Please don’t alter the goalposts you yourself set. What was the UN’s response? Was there an intervention? A censure of Hezbollah or Lebanon? An investigation?
      - rjzzleep 3y ago
        What exactly is your ask here? To censure Lebanon for moving troops within inside its own country? And how does that relate to my question about Gaza.

areyousure 3y ago

In case anyone is curious, they are welcome to read the following UN Security Council resolution that was vetoed by both China and Russia: https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N23/320/92/PDF/N2332092.pdf https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N23/320/92/PDF...