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The UN is a decoration, Israel has the historic chance of getting rid of hamas and setting precedent that if you fck around, you will find out, no way they are

The UN is a decoration, Israel has the historic chance of getting rid of hamas and setting precedent that if you fck around, you will find out, no way they are stopping.

ceejayoz 3y ago
There is zero chance of getting rid of Hamas in this fashion. It, or a worse successor, will come out of this just fine, no matter how many individual members wind up as meat paste.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > a worse successor, will come out One hopes it will learn that Hamas’ tactics don’t work. They backfire. And they lose one global sympathy.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Hamas’s tactics worked great here. They’ve created 20k new martyrs to recruit off. Prompting a big reaction was the goal, and they got it.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Prompting a big reaction was the goal, and they got it Hamas lost control of Daef and Islamic Jihad. They launched an attack that was shockingly brutal, took hostages and then lost them, and are likely to lose physical control over Gaza for some time. There might have been an inkling of a strategy, but nobody on the ground was calling shots.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        Precisely the way they like it. Control means governing, which means you're blamed when things go wrong. Hamas has zero interest in actually having to run a functional government with elections and water quality monitoring and street maintenance. See also: Republican promises to repeal Obamacare. > They launched an attack that was shockingly brutal... The response to that attack has killed ~15x as many so far, with plenty of civilians in that mix. Even the US is starting to message "hold up, that's a bit much" now.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Hamas has zero interest in actually having to run a functional government Hamas’ leadership wants its villa bills paid. Those payments come in exchange for influence over Gaza. No power in Gaza, no villas in Doha. > Republican promises to repeal Obamacare This is nonsense. (I’m ignoring that it’s also in bad taste.) The Republicans were messaging to a primary base who reward loyalty over productivity. Hamas wasn’t messaging to anyone with this attack. They lost control of their proxies. The analogy is in America supporting the Mujahideen to pressure the Soviets and then watching that backfire as Al Qaeda.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        > Hamas’ leadership wants its villa bills paid. Which will continue. > Those payments come in exchange for influence over Gaza. Those payments come in exchange for remaining a thorn in Israel's side. They don't need to be managing Gaza's water authority to remain one. They're much more effective as an insurgency than a government. > The Republicans were messaging to a primary base who reward loyalty over productivity. The same is true for Hamas, quite clearly. > Hamas wasn’t messaging to anyone with this attack. They lost control of their proxies. This is a weird assertion; all signs point to extensive planning by Hamas of this attack.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Which will continue If they lose control over Gaza? No. > payments come in exchange for remaining a thorn in Israel's side…they're much more effective as an insurgency The guys in Doha aren’t insurgents. They’re bureaucrats. The insurgent leadership is being killed. > same is true for Hamas, quite clearly How? There is no loyalty test. Again, Hamas lost control of its proxies. You’re conflating separate situations that are fundamentally different because on the surface you like the opportunity to call the GOP terrorists. Which, ironically, undermines your broader argument. > all signs point to extensive planning by Hamas Extensive planning. Not necessarily by Hamas. Again, this was a tremendously stupid move. There were smarter plays, and hints Hamas was trying for them, but they screwed the pooch and are seeing heavy destruction and the likely loss of their fighters, local infrastructure and operational control in Gaza.
gizmo686 3y ago
There is nothing historic about this. State powers have destroyed militarily inferior terrorist groups using overwhelming force before. What would be historic is if this led to a long term reduction of terrorism in the region. However Israel has offered no explanation for why their attempt at brute force anti-terrorism will work better then every other attempt.
saiya-jin 3y ago
You must have missed past 70 years of history lessons. Everybody who cares knows Israel and Mossad don't fuck around, they will kill school full of small children in the middle of western Europe if it would be worth for their goals (that's an extreme example but murdering scientists or civilians was done repeatedly... not judging TBH, they are since beginning in brutal situation with all neighbors and they are capable when it comes to realizing threats... but they are not nice people if they see you as any form of potential threat). Also, there is no way to get rid of Hamas unless overall conditions that made it what it is today remain. Its desperately naive position that has been proven impossible over and over. Ie terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters, depending on from where you look on Iraq post 2003 invasion. Maybe with different name, different folks, but cca same goal and methods. Or do you feel that Taliban or Al-Qaeda disappeared just because mightiest military in the world decided to kick their ass for a decade+?
- LegitShady 3y ago
  this isn't the US fighting tribes thousands of km away from home. This is israelis not willing to accept hamas' existence anymore, right across the border. You're learning the lessons of Taliban/Al-Quada the wrong way, because you see a bunch of people who look like the taliban doing attacks and stop thinking. This is not the same situation, nor will Israel accept the situation that existed on October 7th to ever happen again. The old status quo is gone and there won't be a return to it ever, and the current status quo between israel/hamas/iran is decided by who ignores the UN/international pressure the longest. Absolutely nobody has any incentive to listen to calls for ceasefire unless they are in mortal threat, which is what Israel is working on and what hamas started with. The restraint is gone - there is no reason for anyone to hold back because holding back now creates a worse future position.

The UN is a decoration, Israel has the historic chance of getting rid of hamas and setting precedent that if you fck around, you will find out, no way they are stopping.

ceejayoz 3y ago

There is zero chance of getting rid of Hamas in this fashion. It, or a worse successor, will come out of this just fine, no matter how many individual members wind up as meat paste.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> a worse successor, will come out One hopes it will learn that Hamas’ tactics don’t work. They backfire. And they lose one global sympathy.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Hamas’s tactics worked great here. They’ve created 20k new martyrs to recruit off. Prompting a big reaction was the goal, and they got it.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Prompting a big reaction was the goal, and they got it Hamas lost control of Daef and Islamic Jihad. They launched an attack that was shockingly brutal, took hostages and then lost them, and are likely to lose physical control over Gaza for some time. There might have been an inkling of a strategy, but nobody on the ground was calling shots.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      Precisely the way they like it. Control means governing, which means you're blamed when things go wrong. Hamas has zero interest in actually having to run a functional government with elections and water quality monitoring and street maintenance. See also: Republican promises to repeal Obamacare. > They launched an attack that was shockingly brutal... The response to that attack has killed ~15x as many so far, with plenty of civilians in that mix. Even the US is starting to message "hold up, that's a bit much" now.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Hamas has zero interest in actually having to run a functional government Hamas’ leadership wants its villa bills paid. Those payments come in exchange for influence over Gaza. No power in Gaza, no villas in Doha. > Republican promises to repeal Obamacare This is nonsense. (I’m ignoring that it’s also in bad taste.) The Republicans were messaging to a primary base who reward loyalty over productivity. Hamas wasn’t messaging to anyone with this attack. They lost control of their proxies. The analogy is in America supporting the Mujahideen to pressure the Soviets and then watching that backfire as Al Qaeda.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        > Hamas’ leadership wants its villa bills paid. Which will continue. > Those payments come in exchange for influence over Gaza. Those payments come in exchange for remaining a thorn in Israel's side. They don't need to be managing Gaza's water authority to remain one. They're much more effective as an insurgency than a government. > The Republicans were messaging to a primary base who reward loyalty over productivity. The same is true for Hamas, quite clearly. > Hamas wasn’t messaging to anyone with this attack. They lost control of their proxies. This is a weird assertion; all signs point to extensive planning by Hamas of this attack.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Which will continue If they lose control over Gaza? No. > payments come in exchange for remaining a thorn in Israel's side…they're much more effective as an insurgency The guys in Doha aren’t insurgents. They’re bureaucrats. The insurgent leadership is being killed. > same is true for Hamas, quite clearly How? There is no loyalty test. Again, Hamas lost control of its proxies. You’re conflating separate situations that are fundamentally different because on the surface you like the opportunity to call the GOP terrorists. Which, ironically, undermines your broader argument. > all signs point to extensive planning by Hamas Extensive planning. Not necessarily by Hamas. Again, this was a tremendously stupid move. There were smarter plays, and hints Hamas was trying for them, but they screwed the pooch and are seeing heavy destruction and the likely loss of their fighters, local infrastructure and operational control in Gaza.

gizmo686 3y ago

There is nothing historic about this. State powers have destroyed militarily inferior terrorist groups using overwhelming force before. What would be historic is if this led to a long term reduction of terrorism in the region. However Israel has offered no explanation for why their attempt at brute force anti-terrorism will work better then every other attempt.

saiya-jin 3y ago

You must have missed past 70 years of history lessons. Everybody who cares knows Israel and Mossad don't fuck around, they will kill school full of small children in the middle of western Europe if it would be worth for their goals (that's an extreme example but murdering scientists or civilians was done repeatedly... not judging TBH, they are since beginning in brutal situation with all neighbors and they are capable when it comes to realizing threats... but they are not nice people if they see you as any form of potential threat). Also, there is no way to get rid of Hamas unless overall conditions that made it what it is today remain. Its desperately naive position that has been proven impossible over and over. Ie terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters, depending on from where you look on Iraq post 2003 invasion. Maybe with different name, different folks, but cca same goal and methods. Or do you feel that Taliban or Al-Qaeda disappeared just because mightiest military in the world decided to kick their ass for a decade+?

LegitShady 3y ago
this isn't the US fighting tribes thousands of km away from home. This is israelis not willing to accept hamas' existence anymore, right across the border. You're learning the lessons of Taliban/Al-Quada the wrong way, because you see a bunch of people who look like the taliban doing attacks and stop thinking. This is not the same situation, nor will Israel accept the situation that existed on October 7th to ever happen again. The old status quo is gone and there won't be a return to it ever, and the current status quo between israel/hamas/iran is decided by who ignores the UN/international pressure the longest. Absolutely nobody has any incentive to listen to calls for ceasefire unless they are in mortal threat, which is what Israel is working on and what hamas started with. The restraint is gone - there is no reason for anyone to hold back because holding back now creates a worse future position.