7 ms·

I'd wager it's more like we don't think at all and feel only anger. At least online that is.

by questinthrow 3y ago

dimitrios1 3y ago
This is more indicative of where one chooses to spend most of their time online.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  It applies to HN too, the vast majority of comments probably don't have more than, at most, a few minutes of serious, focused, thinking behind them. And with how good LLMs nowadays, probably a numerical majority don't even contain anything worth noting.
  - squigz 3y ago
    Do you have any sort of data to support this, particularly the second claim? It seems particularly absurd to me.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      The comments are the data? I'm not really sure what your asking for.
      - squigz 3y ago
        Well I suppose you're making your own point.
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        You are helping me prove the point with conveniently placed examples, so thanks. But why embarrass yourself?
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    I think it's insulting to say that human opinion or observation is worthless because a small program with a neat dataset can answer a lot of questions. It's like saying that talking with friends about history and engineering is boring because wikipedia has the answers.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      Why did your mind immediately jump to 'worthless'? Plenty of things in this world have some small value but are not noteworthy. In fact most conversations in daily life fall into that category.
- GoToRO 3y ago
  Let's not forget about the feed algoritms that will prioritize anger and only anger because this is what drives impressions.
  - Kamq 3y ago
    That's still indicative of choosing to spend your time in an environment where content is algorithmically controlled. Which is most of the mainstream ones, but following along with the mainstream is a choice.
    - ncallaway 3y ago
      I mean, as an individual it is a choice. But as a society it’s not a choice (or, maybe, a better way to phrase it is the “mainstream” is a reflection of the choice society has already made)
      - Kamq 3y ago
        I feel like we're getting into "the raindrop doesn't feel responsible for the flood" territory here, and I like your second interpretation better. It's absolutely the choice society has made, but society is the individuals that make it up. The idea of the group is a semi-useful abstraction we use because our brains have trouble conceptualizing numbers over ~17. The style of algorithmic feed was created and popularized by individuals about a decade or two ago. A lot of the users of this site (including me) were pioneers in that area, either creating these things, or being the first users to turn our lives over to the feed. But, if you want to create long-lasting societal change (either good or bad), that's how you have to do it. One individual, or a group of individuals start something. A few individuals (usually weirdos) join up. And at a certain point, the increasing number of people give other more mainstream people some sort of social permission to make the same choice. At some point, it becomes socially acceptable enough to become the default and people who don't have the time or energy to put a lot of thought/research into things start doing it without really thinking (this is generally where I consider the bounds of true mainstream).
    - moffkalast 3y ago
VinLucero 3y ago
I feel in my heart a deep sense of empathy after watching that. Like the quote from National Treasure, “People don’t talk like that anymore.” But the response from Nicolas Cage is, “But they feel it”. As I understand it, Hitler used an economic narrative to build his team of supporters and eventually, desperate times cause people to vote with their wallets. Does anyone else feel like the advent of modern online interactions is different from the early web? And maybe, just maybe… the economic incentives of the web shifting are what caused us to begin feeling angry and desperate? Why not rebuild a better web, based on old principles of feeling? Web3 is really just about trust and decentralization of it, so why not rebuild the entire economic stack? AI is great at many things, but great at feeling it is not.
- mozman 3y ago
  The only way the internet has a chance at recovery is to eliminate all financial incentives. No monetization, share information because you want to
- hooho 3y ago
  [dead]
- Geisterde 3y ago
  Youll find a lot of like minded people on nostr. While they have an issue with momentum, thus far they at least have a plausible strategy for decentralizing the web.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  I'm not convinced the Web has gotten worse (or Web interactions worst necessarily). Maybe. I kind of think it's the web itself that has trapped people indoors and into un-social lives when, in the past, boredom would have sent them out into the world to find some kind of entertainment or actual companionship. (And I speak as someone who thinks I also needs to get out more.)
- layer8 3y ago
  What was great about the early web was largely the parts that weren’t economically driven. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to build a better web with economics as the primary concern. It’s the drive for profits that fostered the bad aspects of the modern web in the first place.
javajosh 3y ago
It just occurred to me that anger is favored online because of a UX quirk. To build is complex; to destroy requires only a single bit! So the objects of our ire, those people, things and ideas we want gone from the world, those things that require only that we express our hatred and ill-will toward them, naturally become the most popular and shared content. As a corollary the people who are clearest and most concrete in their list of hates, the ones who constantly edit that list in real time according to audience response, they become the most appealing. Isn't it then not very surprising that those who build prefer to do so in silence.
- basicallybones 3y ago
  "To build is complex; to destroy requires only a single bit!" Love this.
  - layer8 3y ago
    Entropy. There are many more ways to destroy something than to create it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
goles 3y ago
Given the amount of bad encounters I've had driving post-2020, and interacting with strangers, I think it's seeping into the real world as well. The way people act and speak in public feels noticeably different than even a few years ago, let alone 10-20. People are very short with each other now. Even more disturbing, I think I can feel the change in myself too at times.
- kdmccormick 3y ago
  Driving brings out the worst in people. You're all trying to get somewhere, you're all a danger to one another, and, critically, you can't see faces well. So, you end up receiving offenses against you as if they're personal (because you're you!) but commit offenses as if they're impersonal (because others look like cars, not human beings). Would you rudely shove youself in front of someone at the market to get the next spot at the cash register? Probably not. But, would you block oncoming traffic by tailgaiting the person who took a left in front of you, instead of just waiting one more light cycle? Absolutely.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - spacebacon 3y ago
    Yes and the others specifically look like large and aggressively styled combatants. The aesthetic of the automobile and the embodiment of that automobiles essence clearly has an influence within the sensitive and suggestible human experience. Design drives behavior.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      Trump Fans Harass Biden Bus in Texas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjK_Eu8uME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjK_Eu8uME The FBI is investigating an incident of alleged harassment by Trump supporters of a Biden campaign bus in Texas, the Texas Tribune reported, citing a local law enforcement official. The campaign bus was en route from San Antonio to Austin on Interstate 35 on Friday when a caravan of vehicles with Trump signs and flags veered close to the bus and yelled profanities. Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden and his running mate, Senator Kamala Harris, were not on the bus and no one was hurt, although local law enforcement was called to help the bus get to its destination. The campaign scrapped an event scheduled in Austin for Friday after the incident. President Donald Trump tweeted a video of the incident on Saturday night with the comment, “I LOVE TEXAS,” and briefly mentioned it during a campaign rally in Michigan on Sunday. Tariq Thowfeek, Texas communications director for the Biden campaign, said the Trump fans “decided to put our staff, surrogates, supporters, and others in harm’s way” rather to engage in a conversation about the candidates’ different visions. Ronna McDaniel, chairwoman of the Republican National Committee, said Sunday she hadn’t seen the whole video and couldn’t comment on the part where one of the cars appears to almost crash into the bus. “Certainly we don’t want harm and we shouldn’t be hurting other people. The president would not endorse that,” McDaniel said on CBS’s “Face the Nation.” The White House and Trump campaign didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment. Donald Trump Jr, the president’s son, appeared in a video on Twitter last week encouraging supporters of the president to show up for one of Harris’s events in Texas. “It’d be great if you guys would all get together, head down to McAllen and give Kamala Harris a nice Trump Train welcome,” Trump Jr said.
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
Quit social & news media and the world seems at peace (it's not, but it will seem that way)
- tatzeentch 3y ago
  I think the other factor is there are 'types' of people that will comment online, and also only conditions in which some people will comment online, so we get a weird filter. It's easy to think that you'll get a general cross-section of the population posting, and that they're relatively stable when commenting. But we can't see when people are drunk or under the influence of things, who the bots/psyops bad actors are, or the ages etc. Makes for a frothy mix. But I agree, much healthier to just avoid it and just interact in the real world where possible.

I'd wager it's more like we don't think at all and feel only anger. At least online that is.

dimitrios1 3y ago

This is more indicative of where one chooses to spend most of their time online.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
It applies to HN too, the vast majority of comments probably don't have more than, at most, a few minutes of serious, focused, thinking behind them. And with how good LLMs nowadays, probably a numerical majority don't even contain anything worth noting.
- squigz 3y ago
  Do you have any sort of data to support this, particularly the second claim? It seems particularly absurd to me.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    The comments are the data? I'm not really sure what your asking for.
    - squigz 3y ago
      Well I suppose you're making your own point.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        You are helping me prove the point with conveniently placed examples, so thanks. But why embarrass yourself?
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  I think it's insulting to say that human opinion or observation is worthless because a small program with a neat dataset can answer a lot of questions. It's like saying that talking with friends about history and engineering is boring because wikipedia has the answers.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Why did your mind immediately jump to 'worthless'? Plenty of things in this world have some small value but are not noteworthy. In fact most conversations in daily life fall into that category.
GoToRO 3y ago
Let's not forget about the feed algoritms that will prioritize anger and only anger because this is what drives impressions.
- Kamq 3y ago
  That's still indicative of choosing to spend your time in an environment where content is algorithmically controlled. Which is most of the mainstream ones, but following along with the mainstream is a choice.
  - ncallaway 3y ago
    I mean, as an individual it is a choice. But as a society it’s not a choice (or, maybe, a better way to phrase it is the “mainstream” is a reflection of the choice society has already made)
    - Kamq 3y ago
      I feel like we're getting into "the raindrop doesn't feel responsible for the flood" territory here, and I like your second interpretation better. It's absolutely the choice society has made, but society is the individuals that make it up. The idea of the group is a semi-useful abstraction we use because our brains have trouble conceptualizing numbers over ~17. The style of algorithmic feed was created and popularized by individuals about a decade or two ago. A lot of the users of this site (including me) were pioneers in that area, either creating these things, or being the first users to turn our lives over to the feed. But, if you want to create long-lasting societal change (either good or bad), that's how you have to do it. One individual, or a group of individuals start something. A few individuals (usually weirdos) join up. And at a certain point, the increasing number of people give other more mainstream people some sort of social permission to make the same choice. At some point, it becomes socially acceptable enough to become the default and people who don't have the time or energy to put a lot of thought/research into things start doing it without really thinking (this is generally where I consider the bounds of true mainstream).
  - moffkalast 3y ago

VinLucero 3y ago

I feel in my heart a deep sense of empathy after watching that. Like the quote from National Treasure, “People don’t talk like that anymore.” But the response from Nicolas Cage is, “But they feel it”. As I understand it, Hitler used an economic narrative to build his team of supporters and eventually, desperate times cause people to vote with their wallets. Does anyone else feel like the advent of modern online interactions is different from the early web? And maybe, just maybe… the economic incentives of the web shifting are what caused us to begin feeling angry and desperate? Why not rebuild a better web, based on old principles of feeling? Web3 is really just about trust and decentralization of it, so why not rebuild the entire economic stack? AI is great at many things, but great at feeling it is not.

mozman 3y ago
The only way the internet has a chance at recovery is to eliminate all financial incentives. No monetization, share information because you want to
hooho 3y ago
[dead]
Geisterde 3y ago
Youll find a lot of like minded people on nostr. While they have an issue with momentum, thus far they at least have a plausible strategy for decentralizing the web.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
I'm not convinced the Web has gotten worse (or Web interactions worst necessarily). Maybe. I kind of think it's the web itself that has trapped people indoors and into un-social lives when, in the past, boredom would have sent them out into the world to find some kind of entertainment or actual companionship. (And I speak as someone who thinks I also needs to get out more.)
layer8 3y ago
What was great about the early web was largely the parts that weren’t economically driven. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to build a better web with economics as the primary concern. It’s the drive for profits that fostered the bad aspects of the modern web in the first place.

javajosh 3y ago

It just occurred to me that anger is favored online because of a UX quirk. To build is complex; to destroy requires only a single bit! So the objects of our ire, those people, things and ideas we want gone from the world, those things that require only that we express our hatred and ill-will toward them, naturally become the most popular and shared content. As a corollary the people who are clearest and most concrete in their list of hates, the ones who constantly edit that list in real time according to audience response, they become the most appealing. Isn't it then not very surprising that those who build prefer to do so in silence.

basicallybones 3y ago
"To build is complex; to destroy requires only a single bit!" Love this.
- layer8 3y ago
  Entropy. There are many more ways to destroy something than to create it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

goles 3y ago

Given the amount of bad encounters I've had driving post-2020, and interacting with strangers, I think it's seeping into the real world as well. The way people act and speak in public feels noticeably different than even a few years ago, let alone 10-20. People are very short with each other now. Even more disturbing, I think I can feel the change in myself too at times.

kdmccormick 3y ago
Driving brings out the worst in people. You're all trying to get somewhere, you're all a danger to one another, and, critically, you can't see faces well. So, you end up receiving offenses against you as if they're personal (because you're you!) but commit offenses as if they're impersonal (because others look like cars, not human beings). Would you rudely shove youself in front of someone at the market to get the next spot at the cash register? Probably not. But, would you block oncoming traffic by tailgaiting the person who took a left in front of you, instead of just waiting one more light cycle? Absolutely.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- spacebacon 3y ago
  Yes and the others specifically look like large and aggressively styled combatants. The aesthetic of the automobile and the embodiment of that automobiles essence clearly has an influence within the sensitive and suggestible human experience. Design drives behavior.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Trump Fans Harass Biden Bus in Texas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjK_Eu8uME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjK_Eu8uME The FBI is investigating an incident of alleged harassment by Trump supporters of a Biden campaign bus in Texas, the Texas Tribune reported, citing a local law enforcement official. The campaign bus was en route from San Antonio to Austin on Interstate 35 on Friday when a caravan of vehicles with Trump signs and flags veered close to the bus and yelled profanities. Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden and his running mate, Senator Kamala Harris, were not on the bus and no one was hurt, although local law enforcement was called to help the bus get to its destination. The campaign scrapped an event scheduled in Austin for Friday after the incident. President Donald Trump tweeted a video of the incident on Saturday night with the comment, “I LOVE TEXAS,” and briefly mentioned it during a campaign rally in Michigan on Sunday. Tariq Thowfeek, Texas communications director for the Biden campaign, said the Trump fans “decided to put our staff, surrogates, supporters, and others in harm’s way” rather to engage in a conversation about the candidates’ different visions. Ronna McDaniel, chairwoman of the Republican National Committee, said Sunday she hadn’t seen the whole video and couldn’t comment on the part where one of the cars appears to almost crash into the bus. “Certainly we don’t want harm and we shouldn’t be hurting other people. The president would not endorse that,” McDaniel said on CBS’s “Face the Nation.” The White House and Trump campaign didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment. Donald Trump Jr, the president’s son, appeared in a video on Twitter last week encouraging supporters of the president to show up for one of Harris’s events in Texas. “It’d be great if you guys would all get together, head down to McAllen and give Kamala Harris a nice Trump Train welcome,” Trump Jr said.

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago

Quit social & news media and the world seems at peace (it's not, but it will seem that way)

tatzeentch 3y ago
I think the other factor is there are 'types' of people that will comment online, and also only conditions in which some people will comment online, so we get a weird filter. It's easy to think that you'll get a general cross-section of the population posting, and that they're relatively stable when commenting. But we can't see when people are drunk or under the influence of things, who the bots/psyops bad actors are, or the ages etc. Makes for a frothy mix. But I agree, much healthier to just avoid it and just interact in the real world where possible.