4 ms·

This reminds me of the experiment to get the best chickens for laying; every so often they'd get rid of the chickens that didn't lay as much and swap in for a n

This reminds me of the experiment to get the best chickens for laying; every so often they'd get rid of the chickens that didn't lay as much and swap in for a new set, continually getting rid of the lower X%. In the end, the overall output was lower because all the "alpha layers" spent more time fighting than laying. As a software dev, I can't count the number of times HR/hiring managers go for the 10x people, exclusively, and end up with an org that just can't drive in any one direction.

kqr 3y ago
This does actually remind me of how flight controllers were simultaneously selected and trained: the sim team designed scenarios that were specifically tailored to exercise some controller's weak point, over and over. They were very creative in how to exploit controllers' weaknesses. Some controllers took their simulator failures as serious lessons and improved. Others didn't stomach the constant failures and dropped out of the programme. I don't know what proportion of alpha chicken they got, but from what I can tell, the flight controllers were really good at their jobs. I've always wanted to explore adversarial simulation as a training and selection method but I have yet to find an occsassion that warrants it.
- jjk7 3y ago
  > "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me ... You can't be fooled again"
  - bandyaboot 3y ago
    That good ole folksy Tennessee/Texas/probably-Tennessee wisdom.
  - ddalex 3y ago
    I actually admire G. W. Bush's speed of thought here... most people wouldn't be able to stop before delivering, by their own words, a perfectly recorded media bite of "shame on me"... that would've been played non stop ever since. Instead he was able to stop and deliver an iconic line that is quoted ever since to make fun of him.
    - DFHippie 3y ago
      > I actually admire G. W. Bush's speed of thought here... That's a novel interpretation of the gaffe. So you're saying he repaired the expression mid utterance because it was better to sound like a bumbler who couldn't remember a common expression than to utter "shame on me" and have people play it out of context. Maybe? If this were the only instance of him mangling an expression, or all the other instances could be interpreted as rescuing him from a sound bite, this might be more convincing. Try these: > I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family. or > Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning? There are more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushism
      - hexane360 3y ago
        Some of my favorites: https://youtu.be/JhmdEq3JhoY https://youtu.be/JhmdEq3JhoY > "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking 'bout new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." > "It was not always a given that the United States and America would have a close relationship" > "Who could have possibly considered an erection in Iraq at this point in history?" > "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
        ddalex 3y ago
        Is any of them wrong through ?
    - jayd16 3y ago
      I've heard this theory but it's always felt like desperate damage control for a simple but obvious error.
      - Teever 3y ago
        This clip[1] totally changed my perspective on George W. Bush. The man may misspeak a lot but he is cunning and quick on his feet. He knows how to play into his weaknesses. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FTpxwBVl28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FTpxwBVl28
- atoav 3y ago
  Ideally in most jobs you want people who enjoy getting better, even if it means they don't get to shine. Trying hard and fucking up sucks for everyone, but if I were to hire someone I'd rather have someone that can learn from their/our mistakes than someone who abandons ship once the grass is greener elsewhere.
earthboundkid 3y ago
I have a friend who researches botany, and it's the same thing for plants. If you only grow the "best" corn, you end up selecting for corn that slurps all the nutrients away from the other corn in the corn field and getting lower total yield. He says that we humans should do what natural selection cannot, which is to use group selection to pick the corn that is best at playing well with others, not just getting ahead individually.
- darkerside 3y ago
  Nash Equilibrium?
jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
Yeah, this is something I had to learn when I was younger in my career. One of the highest value devs I've worked with was nicknamed the "gold plated bulldozer." He's not a 10x dev. He's not a rockstar. But you know what he does do? He shows up every day and burns his way down the issue list. He doesn't complain. He doesn't try to only work on the exciting tickets. He doesn't cause drama arguing over this or that grand conceptual scheme or architecture. He just plugs away and gets things done. Sure, with a tough algorithmic or architectural problem he'd need to ask someone, but he'd just do that without any ego involved. It didn't really click for me until I was looking at some long term stats for that team and realized in terms of pushing the ball forward, he was doing more than just about any of us. I think it's disappointing people like that are not just overlooked, but almost held in contempt by the more startup end of the software industry.
- wruza 3y ago
  He's not a 10x dev. … He shows up every day and burns his way down the issue list I thought that’s what 10x’ers do. What else could anyone call them 10x for? Complaining all day and rewriting twice a month?
  - tshaddox 3y ago
    > What else could anyone call them 10x for? Developing truly innovative solutions to hard problems? Doing the hard stuff like documenting code and writing automated tests? Fixing bugs that no one else could? Proactively identifying and resolving software reliability and performance issues?
  - phanimahesh 3y ago
    Consistency was never a part of 10x developer definition as I understood it. That label is more often than not applied to "talent", however nebulous it is defined. Consistency is very underrated and hard to develop a habit for.
  - boxed 3y ago
    A 10x dev can realize you're solving the wrong problem.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
The other problem with hiring 'only' 10x people - or having them call the shots without oversight for that matter - is that they pick or - worse - build overly complicated solutions that the non-10x people can't work with or don't understand. 10x is a misnomer in my comment though; 10x refers to productivity, not skill level / intelligence / complexity.

kqr 3y ago

This does actually remind me of how flight controllers were simultaneously selected and trained: the sim team designed scenarios that were specifically tailored to exercise some controller's weak point, over and over. They were very creative in how to exploit controllers' weaknesses. Some controllers took their simulator failures as serious lessons and improved. Others didn't stomach the constant failures and dropped out of the programme. I don't know what proportion of alpha chicken they got, but from what I can tell, the flight controllers were really good at their jobs. I've always wanted to explore adversarial simulation as a training and selection method but I have yet to find an occsassion that warrants it.

jjk7 3y ago
> "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me ... You can't be fooled again"
- bandyaboot 3y ago
  That good ole folksy Tennessee/Texas/probably-Tennessee wisdom.
- ddalex 3y ago
  I actually admire G. W. Bush's speed of thought here... most people wouldn't be able to stop before delivering, by their own words, a perfectly recorded media bite of "shame on me"... that would've been played non stop ever since. Instead he was able to stop and deliver an iconic line that is quoted ever since to make fun of him.
  - DFHippie 3y ago
    > I actually admire G. W. Bush's speed of thought here... That's a novel interpretation of the gaffe. So you're saying he repaired the expression mid utterance because it was better to sound like a bumbler who couldn't remember a common expression than to utter "shame on me" and have people play it out of context. Maybe? If this were the only instance of him mangling an expression, or all the other instances could be interpreted as rescuing him from a sound bite, this might be more convincing. Try these: > I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family. or > Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning? There are more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushism
    - hexane360 3y ago
      Some of my favorites: https://youtu.be/JhmdEq3JhoY https://youtu.be/JhmdEq3JhoY > "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking 'bout new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." > "It was not always a given that the United States and America would have a close relationship" > "Who could have possibly considered an erection in Iraq at this point in history?" > "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
      - ddalex 3y ago
        Is any of them wrong through ?
  - jayd16 3y ago
    I've heard this theory but it's always felt like desperate damage control for a simple but obvious error.
    - Teever 3y ago
      This clip[1] totally changed my perspective on George W. Bush. The man may misspeak a lot but he is cunning and quick on his feet. He knows how to play into his weaknesses. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FTpxwBVl28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FTpxwBVl28
atoav 3y ago
Ideally in most jobs you want people who enjoy getting better, even if it means they don't get to shine. Trying hard and fucking up sucks for everyone, but if I were to hire someone I'd rather have someone that can learn from their/our mistakes than someone who abandons ship once the grass is greener elsewhere.

earthboundkid 3y ago

I have a friend who researches botany, and it's the same thing for plants. If you only grow the "best" corn, you end up selecting for corn that slurps all the nutrients away from the other corn in the corn field and getting lower total yield. He says that we humans should do what natural selection cannot, which is to use group selection to pick the corn that is best at playing well with others, not just getting ahead individually.

darkerside 3y ago
Nash Equilibrium?

jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago

Yeah, this is something I had to learn when I was younger in my career. One of the highest value devs I've worked with was nicknamed the "gold plated bulldozer." He's not a 10x dev. He's not a rockstar. But you know what he does do? He shows up every day and burns his way down the issue list. He doesn't complain. He doesn't try to only work on the exciting tickets. He doesn't cause drama arguing over this or that grand conceptual scheme or architecture. He just plugs away and gets things done. Sure, with a tough algorithmic or architectural problem he'd need to ask someone, but he'd just do that without any ego involved. It didn't really click for me until I was looking at some long term stats for that team and realized in terms of pushing the ball forward, he was doing more than just about any of us. I think it's disappointing people like that are not just overlooked, but almost held in contempt by the more startup end of the software industry.

wruza 3y ago
He's not a 10x dev. … He shows up every day and burns his way down the issue list I thought that’s what 10x’ers do. What else could anyone call them 10x for? Complaining all day and rewriting twice a month?
- tshaddox 3y ago
  > What else could anyone call them 10x for? Developing truly innovative solutions to hard problems? Doing the hard stuff like documenting code and writing automated tests? Fixing bugs that no one else could? Proactively identifying and resolving software reliability and performance issues?
- phanimahesh 3y ago
  Consistency was never a part of 10x developer definition as I understood it. That label is more often than not applied to "talent", however nebulous it is defined. Consistency is very underrated and hard to develop a habit for.
- boxed 3y ago
  A 10x dev can realize you're solving the wrong problem.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

The other problem with hiring 'only' 10x people - or having them call the shots without oversight for that matter - is that they pick or - worse - build overly complicated solutions that the non-10x people can't work with or don't understand. 10x is a misnomer in my comment though; 10x refers to productivity, not skill level / intelligence / complexity.