5 ms·

It makes a difference in that one way is a useful psychological manipulation and one is not. There is no difference in the way you seem to suggest.

refurb 3y ago
How is offering a lesser punishment "manipulation"? As a defendant, it's simply a choice - "Do I think I can beat this case?". If you don't think you can, then you take the lesser punishment. If you think you can beat it, you decline it because the better choice is "no punishment at all".
- emmelaich 3y ago
  Because it encourages the threat of a far greater punishment.
- KingMob 3y ago
  > How is offering a lesser punishment "manipulation"? It's part of a larger manipulative pattern. Since you can increase the penalties for jury convictions to absurd levels, like the USA has done, even a "lesser" plea bargain punishment can still be more punitive than most nations' jury conviction punishments. Plus, as the length of a jury conviction punishment increases, the threshold at which one's willing to risk a jury trial has to go up, thus pressuring people into taking plea bargains they might not under another country's judicial system.
  - refurb 3y ago
    > Since you can increase the penalties for jury convictions to absurd levels What? Juries follow the law and the prescribed punishments. Maybe you're thinking of civil penalties?
    - watwut 3y ago
      Juries do not decide punishments. They are often times NOT allowed to even know what punishments are (the thinking is that they would be more likely to acquit when those punishments would feel too hard for them).
      - refurb 3y ago
        They do in some cases. But your response misses the point entirely. How can a prosecution threaten a longer sentence when they don’t determine it?
        watwut 3y ago
        > How can a prosecution threaten a longer sentence when they don’t determine it? They do determine it in plea guilty process, actually. That being said, what they primary do is to manipulate charges - they add or remove charges to get the sentence they want. That process has nothing to do with what you actually done or not done. Charges are made big if you want trial. Charges are small if you accept plea guilty. For practical purposes, prosecutors are key decision makers.
- southerntofu 3y ago
  It's not just "can i beat this case"? It's also, "how much will it cost me?" and "how long will i stay imprisoned for before i'm found not guilty?". Of course, there's the chance you're found guilty although noone would dare say you committed the crime (Leonard Peltier), or the chance that you'll submit to much harsher punishment than what was decided by the judge (Georges Ibrahim Abdallah). But even when you're white and you're not facing a political repression case, there's a good chance pleading guilty for a fine and a suspended sentence looks better than spending a whole year in jail awaiting the trial that will exonerate you. There's plenty of research in that area, feel free to look it up. https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-criminal-cases-justice https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-crim...
- dcminter 3y ago
  Would you prefer a 10% chance of a death penalty or a 100% chance of a 1 year prison sentence? Exaggerated, but it makes the point clear.

refurb 3y ago

How is offering a lesser punishment "manipulation"? As a defendant, it's simply a choice - "Do I think I can beat this case?". If you don't think you can, then you take the lesser punishment. If you think you can beat it, you decline it because the better choice is "no punishment at all".

emmelaich 3y ago
Because it encourages the threat of a far greater punishment.
KingMob 3y ago
> How is offering a lesser punishment "manipulation"? It's part of a larger manipulative pattern. Since you can increase the penalties for jury convictions to absurd levels, like the USA has done, even a "lesser" plea bargain punishment can still be more punitive than most nations' jury conviction punishments. Plus, as the length of a jury conviction punishment increases, the threshold at which one's willing to risk a jury trial has to go up, thus pressuring people into taking plea bargains they might not under another country's judicial system.
- refurb 3y ago
  > Since you can increase the penalties for jury convictions to absurd levels What? Juries follow the law and the prescribed punishments. Maybe you're thinking of civil penalties?
  - watwut 3y ago
    Juries do not decide punishments. They are often times NOT allowed to even know what punishments are (the thinking is that they would be more likely to acquit when those punishments would feel too hard for them).
    - refurb 3y ago
      They do in some cases. But your response misses the point entirely. How can a prosecution threaten a longer sentence when they don’t determine it?
      - watwut 3y ago
        > How can a prosecution threaten a longer sentence when they don’t determine it? They do determine it in plea guilty process, actually. That being said, what they primary do is to manipulate charges - they add or remove charges to get the sentence they want. That process has nothing to do with what you actually done or not done. Charges are made big if you want trial. Charges are small if you accept plea guilty. For practical purposes, prosecutors are key decision makers.
southerntofu 3y ago
It's not just "can i beat this case"? It's also, "how much will it cost me?" and "how long will i stay imprisoned for before i'm found not guilty?". Of course, there's the chance you're found guilty although noone would dare say you committed the crime (Leonard Peltier), or the chance that you'll submit to much harsher punishment than what was decided by the judge (Georges Ibrahim Abdallah). But even when you're white and you're not facing a political repression case, there's a good chance pleading guilty for a fine and a suspended sentence looks better than spending a whole year in jail awaiting the trial that will exonerate you. There's plenty of research in that area, feel free to look it up. https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-criminal-cases-justice https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-crim...
dcminter 3y ago
Would you prefer a 10% chance of a death penalty or a 100% chance of a 1 year prison sentence? Exaggerated, but it makes the point clear.