4 ms·

The issue isn't electricity, it's energy. How do you run your first ironworks without coal? You can't really exploit hydro for electricity without industrializa

The issue isn't electricity, it's energy. How do you run your first ironworks without coal? You can't really exploit hydro for electricity without industrialization, and you can't really have an industrial revolution without coal.

Salgat 3y ago
Good point, even to this day coal/coke is required to create steel (electric-arc is only used for recycling steel).
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  That’s not true. We use syngas (about 50% H, 50% CO) in all the iron ore reduction plants built in the Us in the last few decades, and they can run almost entirely on hydrogen. Additionally, coal wasn’t even used for making steel in the US basically at all until 1827 (charcoal has fewer impurities like the sulfur found in a lot of early coke). The US primarily used charcoal from wood even for iron production until well into the mid 1800s (and by 1884, charcoal was still used for 10% of iron and steel production in the US, and charcoal was still used in some niche areas even into the 1940s). And steam locomotives in the US were also often powered by wood in the 1800s.
mdorazio 3y ago
The same way the first ironworks were run - with charcoal, which you make from organics.
- elbasti 3y ago
  But without coal you quickly run out of forest. I mean, England did, and they were coal rich!
  - Retric 3y ago
    England ran out of Land not forests. They set aside large tracts of land for growing wood starting in the Middle Ages because having wood was useful both as a construction material and for burning. Critically, you can move wood long distances so running out locally isn’t an major issue as long as you don’t run out globally.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    Before coal, England used coppicing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing#United_Kingdom ) to quickly regrow the forests used for charcoal for steel smelting. Your industrial output will be limited, but there's plenty of land and forests grow by themselves.
  - antupis 3y ago
    You can always use peat.
Retric 3y ago
Early Ironworks couldn’t use coal due to suffer issues, the US didn’t swap until 1827 long after the Industrial Revolution kicked off. Also, we’ve used a relatively small fraction of the worlds coal supply, so there’s little reason to assume a prior civilization would have used it up either. A large fraction of the early/mid Industrial Revolution was powered by hydro/wood. Abundant rainfall is why so much industry ended up in the north eastern US and England. Efficient motors was more a result of a scientific and industrial innovation rather than the cause of such. So suggesting Ironworks as a major obstacle doesn’t really stand up.
- Retric 3y ago
  auto corrupt: “suffer issues” > sulfur issues

Salgat 3y ago

Good point, even to this day coal/coke is required to create steel (electric-arc is only used for recycling steel).

Robotbeat 3y ago
That’s not true. We use syngas (about 50% H, 50% CO) in all the iron ore reduction plants built in the Us in the last few decades, and they can run almost entirely on hydrogen. Additionally, coal wasn’t even used for making steel in the US basically at all until 1827 (charcoal has fewer impurities like the sulfur found in a lot of early coke). The US primarily used charcoal from wood even for iron production until well into the mid 1800s (and by 1884, charcoal was still used for 10% of iron and steel production in the US, and charcoal was still used in some niche areas even into the 1940s). And steam locomotives in the US were also often powered by wood in the 1800s.

mdorazio 3y ago

The same way the first ironworks were run - with charcoal, which you make from organics.

elbasti 3y ago
But without coal you quickly run out of forest. I mean, England did, and they were coal rich!
- Retric 3y ago
  England ran out of Land not forests. They set aside large tracts of land for growing wood starting in the Middle Ages because having wood was useful both as a construction material and for burning. Critically, you can move wood long distances so running out locally isn’t an major issue as long as you don’t run out globally.
- cyberax 3y ago
  Before coal, England used coppicing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing#United_Kingdom ) to quickly regrow the forests used for charcoal for steel smelting. Your industrial output will be limited, but there's plenty of land and forests grow by themselves.
- antupis 3y ago
  You can always use peat.

Retric 3y ago

Early Ironworks couldn’t use coal due to suffer issues, the US didn’t swap until 1827 long after the Industrial Revolution kicked off. Also, we’ve used a relatively small fraction of the worlds coal supply, so there’s little reason to assume a prior civilization would have used it up either. A large fraction of the early/mid Industrial Revolution was powered by hydro/wood. Abundant rainfall is why so much industry ended up in the north eastern US and England. Efficient motors was more a result of a scientific and industrial innovation rather than the cause of such. So suggesting Ironworks as a major obstacle doesn’t really stand up.

Retric 3y ago
auto corrupt: “suffer issues” > sulfur issues