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The Estonian e-ID system and Qualified Electronic Signature in the EU are good ideas. The government issues you a signed identity. You can use that signed ident

by bri3d 3y ago

The Estonian e-ID system and Qualified Electronic Signature in the EU are good ideas. The government issues you a signed identity. You can use that signed identity to counter-sign challenges in places you'd otherwise (in the US) need to use a Social Security Number and a convoluted private market identity-verification system (for example, the stupid "were you associated with this address 4.5 years ago" things). Like opening a bank account, insurance, paying medical bills, taxes, etc. Replacing driver's licenses with QR codes for physical interactions, on the other hand, doesn't seem to solve for much. We have a similar system in Colorado and I've never found any value in it; bars and liquor stores are under no obligation to accept it, so they don't.

ipqk 3y ago
> Then simply share your TruAge QR code at checkout at select retail locations in Sacramento to safely and securely verify your age, while protecting your privacy. Right now, bars/clubs will scan my ID and have all my information (name, birthdate, etc). They don't need that. all they need is a yes/no that I'm over 21.
- dotBen 3y ago
  Many bars, clubs, concerts and festivals scan your ID's barcode on the back and both store the data and retrieve data from a threat database. It's actually surprising more don't as the technology is in all of our pockets. Not saying I agree with it but in many cases we're beyond the binary check.
azinman2 3y ago
Now imagine they are under obligation to accept it, and you can get to the point where you can leave your wallet at home. With car keys being Bluetooth, I now don’t carry keys in my pocket. To not carry a wallet to drive to the grocery store either would be a joy. I like a physical lightness.
- homefree 3y ago
  Add a home smart lock and you can get to the point where you only need to carry your phone. Probably could go even further and only carry Apple Watch and AirPods in most cases!
- bri3d 3y ago
  Yes, this idea would be interesting if acceptance were mandated, but I'm not aware of any movement in that direction in any state. Mandating this kind of system would be massively fraught with political and legal peril in the US and is likely impossible. With the way the US works, there needs to be an incentive for businesses to use these systems, and I haven't seen an implementation with this focus yet. Bars would probably like to spend less resource teaching their bouncers and staff to read fake ID tea leaves, but they also can't afford a system that breaks, or is slow or expensive. On paper, these systems should allow for fast, reliable offline verification with a good scanning device. States could partner with someone to make cheap, reliable, phone/tablet-attached scanning devices available widely off the shelf, rather than running "private pilot programs" that fizzle out, or handwaving. Since mDL is an ISO standard, maybe there's room for someone to make a cheap mDL reader system for bars and restaurants, even if state programs seem overly shortsighted in funding this kind of development.
  - intrasight 3y ago
    > Mandating this kind of system The US mandated the acceptance of fiat money. That too was controversial at first.
    - eesmith 3y ago
      Yes, fiat money was controversial at first, with political and legal peril when the US started printing greenbacks during the Civil War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Note#Politics_and_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Note#Politics_an... But after the US switched back to specie (thanks to the large silver strikes and government policy which meant silver coins were priced by government fiat, not commodity value) it took nearly a century before the US fully embraced fiat money. It likely helped that the legal issues related to fiat money were resolved in the 1870s, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tender_Cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tender_Cases . I suspect bri3d was thinking of a timescale in the decade or two range, not 100 years. The Real ID Act of 2005 still isn't in fully in force, having been extended most recently to May 7, 2025. That should give an idea the likely timescale involved.
paxys 3y ago
Stuff like this is rarely worth the cost or effort to implement in the US because like 1% of the population will ever end up using it. We are talking about a country where 1 in 5 households still don't have (and don't want) internet.
- eesmith 3y ago
  While 1 in 5 households do not have internet, and 58% expressed no interest or need to be online, at least roughly a quarter of them do want internet. 18% of those who do not have internet say the reason is they can’t afford home internet service, and another 4% lack internet availability in their area, says https://www.ntia.gov/blog/2022/switched-why-are-one-five-us-households-not-online https://www.ntia.gov/blog/2022/switched-why-are-one-five-us-... . I don't know about the other 20%.
vlovich123 3y ago
This says mDL. The QR code is at most a cryptographically signed attestation of relevant attributes (eg age, name, etc). Not sure if this made it in, but originally the ISO group had been talking about also signing >18/>21 of sharing the actual birthday for things like restricted sales. I don’t recall discussing QR codes as it was supposed to be NFC but maybe that changed (don’t see a mention of QR codes on the site). Having a dedicated app always struck me as the wrong experience but I think that’ll get sorted and Apple and Google should integrate it into their wallets. We’re quite close as a society to not needing a wallet at all and instead it’s sufficient to have your phone or smart watch with you. Modern iPhones conceivably can even have a dead battery and still provide your ID information. Btw this is an ISO standard that has good participation from relevant regulatory bodies for some of the largest countries so this will be the standard everyone adopts.
- bri3d 3y ago
  This implementation is QR code based, which ruins a lot of the value in terms of low-battery use and makes standardization and acceptance difficult. Anyway, for anything to work in the US, there needs to be an incentive for businesses to use this system, and right now, there isn't one for point-of-sale driver's license use, in my opinion. It's technology (perceived as unreliable, slow, expensive) that can break, vs. looking at an ID, which isn't without its faults but is a simple system everyone understands. If there were a really fast, simple, cheap, readily available system for age verification which was pushed to bars, I could see this system catching on, but "limited private pilot programs" aren't it. And that's pretty much my point - starting with places where technology is already required (banking etc.) makes more sense in many ways than starting with driver's license replacement. The issue here is that the horribly broken identity system in the US is Federal (Social Security) while these electronic systems are State.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    I think that’s because the standard (iso 18013-5) allows for NFC & QR codes which makes sense and because they couldn’t do it over NFC for the iOS app so they likely just chose something they could provide a consistent experience for. It wouldn’t surprise me if the app is even built largely starting with the sample reference code[1]. BTW likely the reason QR codes were part of the standard in the first place was because at the time Apple wasn’t involved and their APIs were (& remain?) locked down so that a third party wouldn’t be able to implement the standard. Apple did join later & have integrated support for the standard into their wallet so I imagine California will be added to their list of states sooner rather than later. Many countries in Europe have a strong federal motor vehicle authority so rolling out these IDs is faster nationally whereas in the US & Canada it’s a patchwork of states/provinces that cooperate under AAMVA & rollouts happen piecemeal on each state’s timeline (to be fair, US & Canada are quite large and historically each state develops their own infrastructure which means you have to replicate updating the infrastructure & it’s usually done by contractors under very lucrative contracts). Keep in mind there are US states that already integrate with Apple wallet via NFC and whatnot and MDL is a shorthand name for the standard & nobody is going to implement anything other than the standard (that’s why AAMVA, RDW, DVLA & other relevant government bodies had representatives involved with and engaged with the standard / running the standard body) [1] IIRC the sample app was built by the folks at the UDL as a PoC for the ISO group. Funded by the good folks at RDW which also allowed it to be open-sourced and shared freely. The Netherlands government’s approach to tech is a hidden gem into how to structure policy around tech (I think Estonia is also well regarded because of their adoption of cryptographic ID cards so early).

by bri3d 3y ago

ipqk 3y ago

> Then simply share your TruAge QR code at checkout at select retail locations in Sacramento to safely and securely verify your age, while protecting your privacy. Right now, bars/clubs will scan my ID and have all my information (name, birthdate, etc). They don't need that. all they need is a yes/no that I'm over 21.

dotBen 3y ago
Many bars, clubs, concerts and festivals scan your ID's barcode on the back and both store the data and retrieve data from a threat database. It's actually surprising more don't as the technology is in all of our pockets. Not saying I agree with it but in many cases we're beyond the binary check.

azinman2 3y ago

Now imagine they are under obligation to accept it, and you can get to the point where you can leave your wallet at home. With car keys being Bluetooth, I now don’t carry keys in my pocket. To not carry a wallet to drive to the grocery store either would be a joy. I like a physical lightness.

homefree 3y ago
Add a home smart lock and you can get to the point where you only need to carry your phone. Probably could go even further and only carry Apple Watch and AirPods in most cases!
bri3d 3y ago
Yes, this idea would be interesting if acceptance were mandated, but I'm not aware of any movement in that direction in any state. Mandating this kind of system would be massively fraught with political and legal peril in the US and is likely impossible. With the way the US works, there needs to be an incentive for businesses to use these systems, and I haven't seen an implementation with this focus yet. Bars would probably like to spend less resource teaching their bouncers and staff to read fake ID tea leaves, but they also can't afford a system that breaks, or is slow or expensive. On paper, these systems should allow for fast, reliable offline verification with a good scanning device. States could partner with someone to make cheap, reliable, phone/tablet-attached scanning devices available widely off the shelf, rather than running "private pilot programs" that fizzle out, or handwaving. Since mDL is an ISO standard, maybe there's room for someone to make a cheap mDL reader system for bars and restaurants, even if state programs seem overly shortsighted in funding this kind of development.
- intrasight 3y ago
  > Mandating this kind of system The US mandated the acceptance of fiat money. That too was controversial at first.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    Yes, fiat money was controversial at first, with political and legal peril when the US started printing greenbacks during the Civil War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Note#Politics_and_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Note#Politics_an... But after the US switched back to specie (thanks to the large silver strikes and government policy which meant silver coins were priced by government fiat, not commodity value) it took nearly a century before the US fully embraced fiat money. It likely helped that the legal issues related to fiat money were resolved in the 1870s, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tender_Cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tender_Cases . I suspect bri3d was thinking of a timescale in the decade or two range, not 100 years. The Real ID Act of 2005 still isn't in fully in force, having been extended most recently to May 7, 2025. That should give an idea the likely timescale involved.

paxys 3y ago

Stuff like this is rarely worth the cost or effort to implement in the US because like 1% of the population will ever end up using it. We are talking about a country where 1 in 5 households still don't have (and don't want) internet.

eesmith 3y ago
While 1 in 5 households do not have internet, and 58% expressed no interest or need to be online, at least roughly a quarter of them do want internet. 18% of those who do not have internet say the reason is they can’t afford home internet service, and another 4% lack internet availability in their area, says https://www.ntia.gov/blog/2022/switched-why-are-one-five-us-households-not-online https://www.ntia.gov/blog/2022/switched-why-are-one-five-us-... . I don't know about the other 20%.

vlovich123 3y ago

This says mDL. The QR code is at most a cryptographically signed attestation of relevant attributes (eg age, name, etc). Not sure if this made it in, but originally the ISO group had been talking about also signing >18/>21 of sharing the actual birthday for things like restricted sales. I don’t recall discussing QR codes as it was supposed to be NFC but maybe that changed (don’t see a mention of QR codes on the site). Having a dedicated app always struck me as the wrong experience but I think that’ll get sorted and Apple and Google should integrate it into their wallets. We’re quite close as a society to not needing a wallet at all and instead it’s sufficient to have your phone or smart watch with you. Modern iPhones conceivably can even have a dead battery and still provide your ID information. Btw this is an ISO standard that has good participation from relevant regulatory bodies for some of the largest countries so this will be the standard everyone adopts.

bri3d 3y ago
This implementation is QR code based, which ruins a lot of the value in terms of low-battery use and makes standardization and acceptance difficult. Anyway, for anything to work in the US, there needs to be an incentive for businesses to use this system, and right now, there isn't one for point-of-sale driver's license use, in my opinion. It's technology (perceived as unreliable, slow, expensive) that can break, vs. looking at an ID, which isn't without its faults but is a simple system everyone understands. If there were a really fast, simple, cheap, readily available system for age verification which was pushed to bars, I could see this system catching on, but "limited private pilot programs" aren't it. And that's pretty much my point - starting with places where technology is already required (banking etc.) makes more sense in many ways than starting with driver's license replacement. The issue here is that the horribly broken identity system in the US is Federal (Social Security) while these electronic systems are State.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  I think that’s because the standard (iso 18013-5) allows for NFC & QR codes which makes sense and because they couldn’t do it over NFC for the iOS app so they likely just chose something they could provide a consistent experience for. It wouldn’t surprise me if the app is even built largely starting with the sample reference code[1]. BTW likely the reason QR codes were part of the standard in the first place was because at the time Apple wasn’t involved and their APIs were (& remain?) locked down so that a third party wouldn’t be able to implement the standard. Apple did join later & have integrated support for the standard into their wallet so I imagine California will be added to their list of states sooner rather than later. Many countries in Europe have a strong federal motor vehicle authority so rolling out these IDs is faster nationally whereas in the US & Canada it’s a patchwork of states/provinces that cooperate under AAMVA & rollouts happen piecemeal on each state’s timeline (to be fair, US & Canada are quite large and historically each state develops their own infrastructure which means you have to replicate updating the infrastructure & it’s usually done by contractors under very lucrative contracts). Keep in mind there are US states that already integrate with Apple wallet via NFC and whatnot and MDL is a shorthand name for the standard & nobody is going to implement anything other than the standard (that’s why AAMVA, RDW, DVLA & other relevant government bodies had representatives involved with and engaged with the standard / running the standard body) [1] IIRC the sample app was built by the folks at the UDL as a PoC for the ISO group. Funded by the good folks at RDW which also allowed it to be open-sourced and shared freely. The Netherlands government’s approach to tech is a hidden gem into how to structure policy around tech (I think Estonia is also well regarded because of their adoption of cryptographic ID cards so early).