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California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program
- explodes 3y agoWe need data privacy protection laws _before_ implementing something like this, otherwise it is a perfect tool to be abused by overreaching government entities (law enforcement).
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bigmattystyles 3y agoObligatory - do not hand your unlocked phone over to a cop
- threeio 3y agoCurrently doesn't work for the police, however 10,000% this.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tomohelix 3y agoUnfortunately, people who are aware of this won't even use this thing anyway and many who are exploitable would be tricked into giving their phone to the police. I hate how police is legally allowed to lie and psychologically trick/pressure people into things they would not normally do. It makes me distrust and question everything they do and say, i.e. being uncooperative to them. Which they then can use as an excuse to escalate and detain or get violent to me. Interacting with the police is a terrible experience no matter how upright you are because even if you are faultless, they can still make up shit to mess with your day, or life.
- phpisthebest 3y agoI would not have a problem with police legally lying, if it was legal for me to lie in response. The single biggest problem in modern society is a dual rules we have for government agents vs the population at large, this can not stand in a free society. We all either have the same rules or we have tyranny there is no 3rd option
- Tagbert 3y agoYou are not required to tell the truth to the police.
- bigmattystyles 3y agoYou can say nothing, but you cannot make a false statement
- phpisthebest 3y agoWell Lying to the FBI and other federal agents is direct violation of the law Lying to general police while not direct violation of the law, can be (and has been) prosecuted under several laws such as obstruction of justice, also several states have statues making false or misleading statements to police or public officials during in official investigation. Then there are also laws that prohibiting lying in specific context like your name, address, and other details.
- whartung 3y agoFrom the article they seem to be cognizant of this issue. > The mDL offers a quick and secure identity-check at airports, without handing over your phone.
- techie128 3y agoThe marketing material is misleading / naive. Cops routinely ask for ids at traffic stop and take them to their vehicle to verify the driver details in their system. I would imagine they would do the same with digital id and therefore one would need to hand them an unlocked phone as California digital DL doesn't appear to integrate with Apple Wallet yet?
- useerup 3y agoHere in Denmark we also have a driver's license app. The app has a feature through which the user can identify themself to another party using the same app on their phone. When used to identify, the app displays a series of QR codes which can be recorded by the 2nd phone through the camera. No need to hand over th e phone. It tranfers identifying information such as name, age and the photo so that the 2nd party can use it to validate on their screen.
- noodlesUK 3y agoI’m enthusiastic about the longer term future of solutions like this. Current IDs can’t do data minimization very easily, but phone-based solutions can. You should be able to get a permission prompt saying “drug store wants to know your >18/21 status” and not hand over any other data. Of course this requires regulatory oversight to ensure that the stores don’t just ask for all the perms available. However, does this implement the ISO spec for drivers licenses in Apple/google wallet, or is this some home grown thing?
- Xeoncross 3y agoIt also ensures that in the future all law enforcement and government agencies will have access to your personal device because "everyone's doing it" and why would you be the weird person that doesn't want to unlock it and hand it over for them to scan and verify everything? After all, it's simple, safe and easy!
- noodlesUK 3y agoIf anything this will improve things if Apple/Google allow you to hand over the phone without fully unlocking it to present ID (and other stuff like proof of insurance). The cop would then have to go back to you and get you to unlock it a second time. If they’re using a home grown app, that doesn’t work.
- almost_usual 3y agoUnless the government starts buying everyone smart phones an id card will be fine.
- phpisthebest 3y agoYour optimism defies the historical record on how these advances tend to play out in reality Hint, they almost never increase privacy
- LelouBil 3y agoFrance's digital ID program called "France identité" does the first part. After pairing it with your physical ID via NFC you can generate digital proofs of identity which are time based and contain the recipient's name and the usage for the proof.
- kornhole 3y agoI assume the app will attempt to tie my device identifiers such as IMEI, phone number, and advertiser ID to my government digital ID. Then they can tie it to other ID's such as Facebook or other app ID's on the device that also read device identifiers. It probably would fail to install on my Graphene phone that treats all apps as hostile by blocking them from reading any device identifiers. I would rather wait with the rest of people in lines than submit to this.
- mistrial9 3y agoCalifornian here - absolutely agree that this is the fiftieth extension of 'government now in surveillance capitalism biz' .. approved by Newsom + company
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- vore 3y agoSpeculating like this with no evidence just to peacock to everyone that you're privacy conscious is not actually helpful for anyone.
- kornhole 3y agoIt is not speculation. I assume every app is hostile and trying to grab information until it can be proved that it does not. Until the app is open sourced and/or people do network analysis on it, this is the safest default assumption.
- vore 3y agoIt absolutely is speculation if you haven't done the legwork and just want to throw out quick and easy takes like this.
- kornhole 3y agoI hope for the best but plan for the worst. The government has a high bar to meet to earn my trust. Government has lied to me too many times. They need to find some way to prove this app is safe for my freedom. Until then, I will endure the sexual abuse of TSA groping my junk when I got through the airport.
- calderwoodra 3y agoI've been using this for a couple months now and it has not helped me at all. It didn't help with closing a PO box in SF, Car rental in Florida denied it, casino in Maryland denied it, but maybe in a couple years it'll be accepted. I think Bevmo accepted it IIRC.
- azinman2 3y agoCA says it’s a pilot program and so far only accepted at SFO and LAX. Rollout for something like this will be slow. Thats ok!
- anonuser123456 3y agoI played around with it. Not worth while at this point. Too many privacy risks (e.g. requires you hand over your phone to police unlocked).
- almost_usual 3y ago> (e.g. requires you hand over your phone to police unlocked). If you’re worried about this keep your id card?
- anonuser123456 3y agoIf I need my physical ID for everything, why do I want a digital ID on my phone?
- toomuchtodo 3y agoBackup and convenience potentially.
- almost_usual 3y agoSounds like you don’t.
- localghost3000 3y agoThis is the thing I think most people aren’t thinking about. I promise you the police either have or are cooking up a way as we speak to image the entire contents of your phone when you hand it to them. Until we get some laws in place around this stuff, no way.
- bkishan 3y agoNot from the US, so help me understand here, why would a traffic cop looking to verify a license want to image the entire contents of your phone?
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- ezxs 3y agoI got it when it was in limited beta. It's underwhelming. First problem is that it's another app on your phone instead of using the Wallet app. It's not clear why you wouldn't just use the Android/Apple app. The second problem is that even the SFO airport doesn't take them as legitimate IDs. For the folks who are worried about giving your phone to the cop - I guess I am not worried about it much. The cop has the right to lethal force and probably knows more about the situation when you are stopped than you ever will. So they take a look at your phone? I don't assume they will just take and keep it. If you need to call your mom, probably best not to call her when the cop is right in front of you. If you need to call your lawyer - you are permitted to do that by law. If you are Googling for what your rights are - you are doing it way too late.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago"It's not clear why you wouldn't just use the Android/Apple app" The QR code changes each time you open it. So you can't just screenshot it. I guess that's the same reason why you can't add it to Google wallet.
- akerl_ 3y agoThis feels like a weird pitch. Yes, the way it works right now is that it loads a fresh QR code every time. But that’s a design choice they made, and they could make a different one. We’ve managed to make secure payments work using phone Wallets, and for those, the phone is performing a handshake with the reader as opposed to sending fixed, static credentials. Likewise, when I add an airline ticket to my Wallet, it automatically updates periodically if my gate or flight time change. Why wouldn’t we be able to find a similar solution here?
- homefree 3y agoNot using the Apple wallet app is a huge bummer. I assumed after approval I’d be able to add it to Apple wallet, is that not the case?
- akerl_ 3y agoIf you hand the cop your unlocked phone, and they hop over from the ID app to other apps and find evidence they think implicates you in a crime, what happens? If you hand the cop your phone, and then say “hey I need that back to call my lawyer” and they say “Sorry, no, I need to keep this for processing”, what happens? There are cases every day where cops are just outright wrong about the law, your rights, or their own department’s policies. The law protects them from being either criminally or civilly implicated in most of those cases, because they’re not expected to be experts in the law. For most purposes, to have a case against a law enforcement officer for violating your rights, you’d need to show that their behavior was so egregious that it was crystal clear they should have known their action was a violation of your rights. And courts have looked very favorably on LEOs historically in this context: things that to a lay person would count as “obvious” have not met that bar. So while you may, after spending a pile of money, time, and energy, find out that yes, the police officer overstepped, you’ve still been severely impacted by their action.
- bri3d 3y agoThe Estonian e-ID system and Qualified Electronic Signature in the EU are good ideas. The government issues you a signed identity. You can use that signed identity to counter-sign challenges in places you'd otherwise (in the US) need to use a Social Security Number and a convoluted private market identity-verification system (for example, the stupid "were you associated with this address 4.5 years ago" things). Like opening a bank account, insurance, paying medical bills, taxes, etc. Replacing driver's licenses with QR codes for physical interactions, on the other hand, doesn't seem to solve for much. We have a similar system in Colorado and I've never found any value in it; bars and liquor stores are under no obligation to accept it, so they don't.
- ipqk 3y ago> Then simply share your TruAge QR code at checkout at select retail locations in Sacramento to safely and securely verify your age, while protecting your privacy. Right now, bars/clubs will scan my ID and have all my information (name, birthdate, etc). They don't need that. all they need is a yes/no that I'm over 21.
- dotBen 3y agoMany bars, clubs, concerts and festivals scan your ID's barcode on the back and both store the data and retrieve data from a threat database. It's actually surprising more don't as the technology is in all of our pockets. Not saying I agree with it but in many cases we're beyond the binary check.
- azinman2 3y agoNow imagine they are under obligation to accept it, and you can get to the point where you can leave your wallet at home. With car keys being Bluetooth, I now don’t carry keys in my pocket. To not carry a wallet to drive to the grocery store either would be a joy. I like a physical lightness.
- homefree 3y agoAdd a home smart lock and you can get to the point where you only need to carry your phone. Probably could go even further and only carry Apple Watch and AirPods in most cases!
- rgbrenner 3y agoWe’ve had this in Colorado for several years now. On an iPhone, you can use guided access to restrict interactions with your phone… just triple press the power button. But there’s also a barcode they can scan to pull up the info on their own device. I rarely carry a wallet anymore… Apple Pay, Colorado state app and my insurance company’s website (or pdf of my card) has all of the info I ever need.
- more_corn 3y agoJust don’t lose your phone. You’d become a stateless ghost alienated from all the documentation that proves you’re a person.
- nextworddev 3y agoIt’s worrying that they are trying to tie your Id to a device that you don’t control
- intrasight 3y agoWhy? You don't control your ID either. But I agree that it should be off-device. It should be a smartcard.
- overstay8930 3y agoI'm sure once the company contracted to build this is done milking taxpayers and the contract goes to someone who isn't buddy buddy with whoever wrote the bill, it'll get integrated into Apple/Google Wallet so normal people will consider using it.
- hakfoo 3y agoTo me, the killer feature of a paper identification document is that it just works. I've been in an accident. They're trying to figure out who I am for whatever reason (i. e. to hopefully tell my family what happened). The paper card still works. The phone may have been damaged, had the battery go flat, or be locked and they can't guess the PIN. I'd rather they just look at the paper card. Similarly, if I get pulled over, the cop knows what to do with a paper card, and it's not suddenly going to do something like flash a push notification, or lock the phone because he pressed the wrong button, and escalate the situation. The problems this solves are both questionable: 1. I can load all my stuff onto my phone and don't need to carry a wallet! Good for you, honey. Frankly, retooling government infrastructure to satisfy an aesthetic pet peeve is sort of a waste of money. Worst case, get one of those fold-open cases with slots for cards, because you're going to have some card that can't be digitized anyway, even if it's the "collect 12 punches and get a free taco" card. 2. It might allow us to generate some "yes this person is over 18" display without leaking the home address. That's assuming that it gets built properly, and consumed properly. We've seen, well, every app in the world. Nobody is going to be selective with permissions when they can ask the moon, and people are generally not in a situation to negotiate over it.
- dpedu 3y agoI can't seem to get past the setup phase where the app "scans" your face via your phone's camera. A dozen attempts, different backgrounds and lighting and I keep getting "try again". Loving this AI-powered future we're in.
- mistrial9 3y ago"pay with your palm" at Whole Foods-Amazon grocery store, right next to the self-service checkout.
- alberth 3y agoIs this just ISO 18013-5 (the MDL standard many states are implementing)? https://www.iso.org/standard/69084.html https://www.iso.org/standard/69084.html Or is this something different?
- tlogan 3y agoI received this, and it seems cool. However, there are some issues. First, it cannot be used as identification at airports, for rental cars, or in bars. There is a kiosk at SFO, but every time I’ve visited, it was out of order. Another annoyance is that it’s not integrated with Apple Wallet. Knowing how the government in California operates, this will likely become a money pit. They will probably abandon the project, sue IDEMIA for breach of contract (or similar reasons), and then start over.
- natch 3y agoMaybe the app needs some more updates. They claim in the app “the card has been added to your wallet” and nope, it’s not there.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agoDigital ID in a world where data privacy&sovereignty is not valued is a red flag, online tracking should be a criminal offense, just like stalking or spying on people IRL Until then, i'll personally won't have any kind of online/digital ID