5 ms·

Won't matter once the world gets warmer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem will get these frozen black soil zones.

by graphe 3y ago

Won't matter once the world gets warmer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem will get these frozen black soil zones. If Ukraine joins the EU the whole of Europe will lose their farming competition and nobody will be able to grow against Ukraine.

_Microft 3y ago
> Won't matter once the world gets warmer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem will get these frozen black soil zones. If Ukraine joins the EU the whole of Europe will lose their farming competition and nobody will be able to grow against Ukraine. That's a strange argument to make. Once these fertile soils become usable it is preferrable to have these resources inside the EU, not outside of it. And if you're worried about competition in the agricultural sector inside the of EU, then you could as well be concerned about a few other countries in the EU right now.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- graphe 3y ago
  For the sake of the EU yes. For the sake of farmers in the EU no. They're lobbying against it.
risyachka 3y ago
You mean the competition will finally be motivated to invest in research and improve what they have now
- graphe 3y ago
  No, you can't beat Ukraine. It's impossible. Subsidies are the only competition they'll get and that costs the country more than it helps.
  - csdvrx 3y ago
    The map shows much of it is in Russia. Can't it produce more cheaply using the large surface available when the world gets warmer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem?useskin=vector#/media/File:Chernozem_map.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem?useskin=vector#/medi... (and wouldn't that be an incentive for Russia and Canada to have the world warm up?
    - graphe 3y ago
      Russia and Canada will gain more human habitable land from global warming.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        So why did you say 'No, you can't beat Ukraine'? When clearly at least one other country has even more black soil?
        graphe 3y ago
        Which country? The depth of black soil in other places is incomparable with Ukraine's. It's like comparing the marianas trench to the Caribbean. The total landmass might be lower but the total volume in Ukraine is leagues larger. >Chernozem layer thickness may vary widely, from several centimetres up to 1.5 metres (60 inches) in Ukraine
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        > The depth of black soil in other places is incomparable with Ukraine's. How do you know it's incomparable? That statement would still hold for other countries with layer thicknesses in the 1m to 1.5m range. Which seems entirely comparable considering the area covered is multiple times greater.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
waihtis 3y ago
speculative question, how much weight do you think this carries in the EU zeal to get Ukraine in as a member
- graphe 3y ago
  A lot. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/15/ukraine-membership-european-union-explained/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/15/ukraine-memb... https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/ukraine-says-polands-farmer-subsidies-not-line-with-wto-rules-2023-06-12/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/ukraine-says-pol... It will probably destroy all non Ukrainian farms for grain and might even do it for specialty foods because it's hard to complete with (guessing) 40% black soil verus 1% or less. They can grow for a very long time with no need for crop rotation or fertilization.
  - waihtis 3y ago
    Interesting, many thanks.
scythe 3y ago
As a Hacker News thread goes longer, the probability of someone bringing up Ukraine approaches 1. Anyway, the map on Wikipedia seems to belie this notion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem#/media/File:Chernozem_map.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem#/media/File:Chernoze...
lostlogin 3y ago
Ukraine is going to be a massive minefield for decades by the looks of it.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  They're working hard on solutions. AI powered drone discovery is one such method. I'm sure you've seen the vids of Ukrainian farmers making their tractors remote control, to run rollers in front to find mines.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
    And then what? Let them go boom? I'd doubt that most of the released chemicals by modern mine explosions do any good for nutritional value, or soil chemistry in general. Rather the opposite. AFAIK there are no 'Eco-Blasts' on the 'market'.
    - mikrotikker 3y ago
      Shit thats a good point. I guess the AT ones are easy enough to disable if you can find them via AI drone. The smaller nastier ones are harder to find but have less chemicals in them.

by graphe 3y ago

_Microft 3y ago

> Won't matter once the world gets warmer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem will get these frozen black soil zones. If Ukraine joins the EU the whole of Europe will lose their farming competition and nobody will be able to grow against Ukraine. That's a strange argument to make. Once these fertile soils become usable it is preferrable to have these resources inside the EU, not outside of it. And if you're worried about competition in the agricultural sector inside the of EU, then you could as well be concerned about a few other countries in the EU right now.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
graphe 3y ago
For the sake of the EU yes. For the sake of farmers in the EU no. They're lobbying against it.

risyachka 3y ago

You mean the competition will finally be motivated to invest in research and improve what they have now

graphe 3y ago
No, you can't beat Ukraine. It's impossible. Subsidies are the only competition they'll get and that costs the country more than it helps.
- csdvrx 3y ago
  The map shows much of it is in Russia. Can't it produce more cheaply using the large surface available when the world gets warmer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem?useskin=vector#/media/File:Chernozem_map.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem?useskin=vector#/medi... (and wouldn't that be an incentive for Russia and Canada to have the world warm up?
  - graphe 3y ago
    Russia and Canada will gain more human habitable land from global warming.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      So why did you say 'No, you can't beat Ukraine'? When clearly at least one other country has even more black soil?
      - graphe 3y ago
        Which country? The depth of black soil in other places is incomparable with Ukraine's. It's like comparing the marianas trench to the Caribbean. The total landmass might be lower but the total volume in Ukraine is leagues larger. >Chernozem layer thickness may vary widely, from several centimetres up to 1.5 metres (60 inches) in Ukraine
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        > The depth of black soil in other places is incomparable with Ukraine's. How do you know it's incomparable? That statement would still hold for other countries with layer thicknesses in the 1m to 1.5m range. Which seems entirely comparable considering the area covered is multiple times greater.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

waihtis 3y ago

speculative question, how much weight do you think this carries in the EU zeal to get Ukraine in as a member

graphe 3y ago
A lot. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/15/ukraine-membership-european-union-explained/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/15/ukraine-memb... https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/ukraine-says-polands-farmer-subsidies-not-line-with-wto-rules-2023-06-12/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/ukraine-says-pol... It will probably destroy all non Ukrainian farms for grain and might even do it for specialty foods because it's hard to complete with (guessing) 40% black soil verus 1% or less. They can grow for a very long time with no need for crop rotation or fertilization.
- waihtis 3y ago
  Interesting, many thanks.

scythe 3y ago

As a Hacker News thread goes longer, the probability of someone bringing up Ukraine approaches 1. Anyway, the map on Wikipedia seems to belie this notion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem#/media/File:Chernozem_map.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem#/media/File:Chernoze...

lostlogin 3y ago

Ukraine is going to be a massive minefield for decades by the looks of it.

mikrotikker 3y ago
They're working hard on solutions. AI powered drone discovery is one such method. I'm sure you've seen the vids of Ukrainian farmers making their tractors remote control, to run rollers in front to find mines.
- LargoLasskhyfv 3y ago
  And then what? Let them go boom? I'd doubt that most of the released chemicals by modern mine explosions do any good for nutritional value, or soil chemistry in general. Rather the opposite. AFAIK there are no 'Eco-Blasts' on the 'market'.
  - mikrotikker 3y ago
    Shit thats a good point. I guess the AT ones are easy enough to disable if you can find them via AI drone. The smaller nastier ones are harder to find but have less chemicals in them.