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My concern is safety (car wreaks), distaste for touch interfaces (also safety related) and the environmental (ironic, I know) and social impact of rare earths m

My concern is safety (car wreaks), distaste for touch interfaces (also safety related) and the environmental (ironic, I know) and social impact of rare earths mining.

MilaM 3y ago
Rare earths are not a major component in car batteries. They are mostly used in the electric motors for the magnets and it's acutally quite easy to replace them. Mining of lithium, copper, nickel, will have to expand in the future. But it's nothing in comparison to the damage that is done with the extraction of oil and gas.
- wazoox 3y ago
  Yes, people afraid of rare earth and lithium mining should get some numbers right first: We extract 4 BILLION TONS of oil from the ground every year. In comparison, we extract a few million tons of lithium (and it's reusable / recyclable), and a few tens of thousand tons of rare earths. The FUD about mining is pure big oil propaganda, frankly.
  - baq 3y ago
    Oil (let’s forget about Canada oil sands for a minute here) is pumped out of the ground. Lithium and copper is strip mined and lithium salts are dried in toxic pools. I’m all for the electric transition because oil will run out but this needs figuring out environmentally.
    - wazoox 3y ago
      Oil is burnt into CO2 that will remain for centuries in the atmosphere, heating it up (and I'm not mentioning countless toxic oil spills, methane leaking, etc). It's less immediately visible and acutely dangerous than toxic pools, but it's really bad.
  - cpursley 3y ago
    Is it just pure FUD? There's some very negative and well documented externalities with lithium mining in particular like child slavery and major environmental pollution. It's not something "big oil" is just making up.
    - wazoox 3y ago
      "Child slavery" is a known problem with cobalt mining, not lithium mining.
    - relativ575 3y ago
      There are negative externalities with any mining, especially as it's often done in developing countries with poor labor protection. However if you are serious about it you should strive to improve the condition of mining workers, as opposed to forgoing it in favor of pumping oil.
  - badpun 3y ago
    Don’t you need to extract hundreds of millions of tons of lithium ore to get a couple of millions of tons of pure lithium? Not to mention the extensive chemical processing the ore must go through.
    - wazoox 3y ago
      Yes but it's still absolutely dwarfed by the staggering amounts of fossil fuels we're extracting (and the absolute environmental catastrophe that goes with them): https://edconway.substack.com/p/the-hump https://edconway.substack.com/p/the-hump
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    Few years ago the pure lithium produced was 50 THOUSAND tons. I'm sure it's a multiple by now but I'd be surprised if it has gotten to millions. Also once lithium is extracted, it carries energy thousands of times before it needs to be recycled to work thousands of times more and so on. Oil/coal carries the energy ONCE and then it's unmitigated pollution. And you are right that this is about 4 BILLION tons annually. Here is data until 2021. http://www.world-mining-data.info/?World_Mining_Data___Data_Section http://www.world-mining-data.info/?World_Mining_Data___Data_...
wazoox 3y ago
Petrol fire is undoubtedly easier to come by and more dangerous in case of a crash. Touch interfaces aren't specifically tied to electric vehicles; it's a common disease on all modern vehicles, fortunately on the decline. Environmentally, in countries with reasonably balanced (i.e. not China and Poland) power generation, EVs are *way better* than ICEs, without the slightest room for debate.
- cpursley 3y ago
  Petrol fire is much easier to extinguish than a battery fire. Yeah, touch interfaces is a disease on most modern vehicles (but especially electric). The infrastructure is the weakest link after the raw material chain required to build them. Oh, and recycling/disposal.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    Petrol fire is much more common than battery fires, which are vanishingly rare. The oil infrastructure must be dismantled as fast as possible. Recycling of batteries is a chicken-egg problem : it's ramping up, but is necessarily lagging behind EV market penetration. It's an eminently solvable problem -- lead batteries are recycled way over 95% already. Remember : a vehicle lasts about 12 to 14 years. in 2035 (12 years), our fossil fuel consumption must have been reduced drastically compared to now. Buying any sort of ICE vehicle today is really, really hard to justify.
    - mrangle 3y ago
      >our fossil fuel consumption must have been reduced drastically compared to now. Tens of millions of people, and possibly more, see this argument as low credibility. Meaning, that the argument for EVs should probably be made according to their inherent merits and not climate arguments. Put another way, I'd be careful about tangling up the EV push in divisive climate politics. As one is arguably likely to taint EVs in the minds of the public, leading to ever greater pushback in regard to their adoption. Don't underestimate public response to being told that they have to change their lifestyle because of hotly debated assertions. No matter whether or not you think they should be debated.

My concern is safety (car wreaks), distaste for touch interfaces (also safety related) and the environmental (ironic, I know) and social impact of rare earths mining.

MilaM 3y ago

Rare earths are not a major component in car batteries. They are mostly used in the electric motors for the magnets and it's acutally quite easy to replace them. Mining of lithium, copper, nickel, will have to expand in the future. But it's nothing in comparison to the damage that is done with the extraction of oil and gas.

wazoox 3y ago
Yes, people afraid of rare earth and lithium mining should get some numbers right first: We extract 4 BILLION TONS of oil from the ground every year. In comparison, we extract a few million tons of lithium (and it's reusable / recyclable), and a few tens of thousand tons of rare earths. The FUD about mining is pure big oil propaganda, frankly.
- baq 3y ago
  Oil (let’s forget about Canada oil sands for a minute here) is pumped out of the ground. Lithium and copper is strip mined and lithium salts are dried in toxic pools. I’m all for the electric transition because oil will run out but this needs figuring out environmentally.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    Oil is burnt into CO2 that will remain for centuries in the atmosphere, heating it up (and I'm not mentioning countless toxic oil spills, methane leaking, etc). It's less immediately visible and acutely dangerous than toxic pools, but it's really bad.
- cpursley 3y ago
  Is it just pure FUD? There's some very negative and well documented externalities with lithium mining in particular like child slavery and major environmental pollution. It's not something "big oil" is just making up.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    "Child slavery" is a known problem with cobalt mining, not lithium mining.
  - relativ575 3y ago
    There are negative externalities with any mining, especially as it's often done in developing countries with poor labor protection. However if you are serious about it you should strive to improve the condition of mining workers, as opposed to forgoing it in favor of pumping oil.
- badpun 3y ago
  Don’t you need to extract hundreds of millions of tons of lithium ore to get a couple of millions of tons of pure lithium? Not to mention the extensive chemical processing the ore must go through.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    Yes but it's still absolutely dwarfed by the staggering amounts of fossil fuels we're extracting (and the absolute environmental catastrophe that goes with them): https://edconway.substack.com/p/the-hump https://edconway.substack.com/p/the-hump
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  Few years ago the pure lithium produced was 50 THOUSAND tons. I'm sure it's a multiple by now but I'd be surprised if it has gotten to millions. Also once lithium is extracted, it carries energy thousands of times before it needs to be recycled to work thousands of times more and so on. Oil/coal carries the energy ONCE and then it's unmitigated pollution. And you are right that this is about 4 BILLION tons annually. Here is data until 2021. http://www.world-mining-data.info/?World_Mining_Data___Data_Section http://www.world-mining-data.info/?World_Mining_Data___Data_...

wazoox 3y ago

Petrol fire is undoubtedly easier to come by and more dangerous in case of a crash. Touch interfaces aren't specifically tied to electric vehicles; it's a common disease on all modern vehicles, fortunately on the decline. Environmentally, in countries with reasonably balanced (i.e. not China and Poland) power generation, EVs are *way better* than ICEs, without the slightest room for debate.

cpursley 3y ago
Petrol fire is much easier to extinguish than a battery fire. Yeah, touch interfaces is a disease on most modern vehicles (but especially electric). The infrastructure is the weakest link after the raw material chain required to build them. Oh, and recycling/disposal.
- wazoox 3y ago
  Petrol fire is much more common than battery fires, which are vanishingly rare. The oil infrastructure must be dismantled as fast as possible. Recycling of batteries is a chicken-egg problem : it's ramping up, but is necessarily lagging behind EV market penetration. It's an eminently solvable problem -- lead batteries are recycled way over 95% already. Remember : a vehicle lasts about 12 to 14 years. in 2035 (12 years), our fossil fuel consumption must have been reduced drastically compared to now. Buying any sort of ICE vehicle today is really, really hard to justify.
  - mrangle 3y ago
    >our fossil fuel consumption must have been reduced drastically compared to now. Tens of millions of people, and possibly more, see this argument as low credibility. Meaning, that the argument for EVs should probably be made according to their inherent merits and not climate arguments. Put another way, I'd be careful about tangling up the EV push in divisive climate politics. As one is arguably likely to taint EVs in the minds of the public, leading to ever greater pushback in regard to their adoption. Don't underestimate public response to being told that they have to change their lifestyle because of hotly debated assertions. No matter whether or not you think they should be debated.