4 ms·

Just get rid of the damn cars.

speedgoose 3y ago
In city centres for sure. In the country side, the population density makes public transports more challenging. People could walk or bike or ski but that would reduce their life quality. It’s difficult to reduce your life quality unless you are forced. I don’t see country side people giving up their cars.
- kiba 3y ago
  Most people live in urban areas. Even in suburban areas, the bicycle could be a viable form of transportation. My grocery store is literally under ten minutes away by bike, but it is essentially a nightmare to bike to because of a lack of safe cycling infrastructures.
  - mrangle 3y ago
    Bicycling is a viable form of transportation, for short distances and recreation. However, it isn't an option for many if not most needs outside of the house even in suburbia. Not to mention the rural areas / exurbs. A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike. Ignoring the inherent danger in getting to the store. I feel like this is a planning conversation for before the era when they decided to make US planning completely car centric and isolating, in a manner that can't be easily nor quickly reversed in a real way.
    - multjoy 3y ago
      >A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike They can if said bike is an e-cargo bike.
    - kiba 3y ago
      I am just saying that in my suburban context, a bike could make sense if there's proper bike infrastructure. It would also make sense if there's a plan to reduce the amount of traffic because the road is used for through traffic both way which makes residents in the neighborhoods being forced to wait a long time before they're able to enter the road safely. There's also a gas station much nearer, but it's not very easy to bike there. Walking there can get your shoes very muddy. There are also offices building nearby too, but once again, it's not very easy to get there on foot or bike. This is all within my local suburban context, but it's not easy to do when large stroad make it difficult to cross relatively short distance, or when protected bike lanes and sidewalks are extremely lacking, or when crossing the road is a dangerous activity or when getting to your local gas station might get your shoes muddy and wet.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  I would dispute that driving leads to a higher quality of life than walking/biking/skiing due to the health problems from lack of exercise. Driving certainly helps with long commutes, but are long commute times increasing the quality of life?
  - ghusto 3y ago
    I agree that many of the drives out in the countryside should be bike rides, but not all. I’ve seen people driving their car to the supermarket <1km away for a handful of shopping, which is obviously bonkers. Then again, you sometimes need to drive somewhere or be cut off, which leads to poor mental health and quality of life.
  - mrangle 3y ago
    Driving isn't negotiable, when living in the USA outside of the few major metros. Unless you've done it, you may not know what I mean. Most of the US is truly remote, even from the closest grocery store. Health doesn't play into the practical consideration of the way most of the country needs to traverse needed distances.
    - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      I've visited the U.S. a couple of times on holiday and even from that perspective, it's stunning just how many places are designed exclusively around the car. Even just walking from one shop to the next is awkward as they often have fences or hedges to separate them, so you have to walk from the shop, through the extensive car park, onto the main road that has no sidewalk and then into the next car park. But yes, you're right. If you design exclusively around the car then not using a car becomes very awkward. Also, without any meaningful public transport, the suburbs also lock in car usage. However, car usage is only really practical up to a certain density of people due to their poor space usage. When you get more people using cars, you need more roads and car parking space. This tends to separate the various amenities to fit in all the extra space, which then means that more people will need a car to travel to them due to the extra distance. That leads to yet more roads and more separation of the shops etc. until you reach a point where there's massive congestion at popular times. However, building more roads leads to induced demand and even more congestion, when the actual solution is to move facilities closer to where people live/work so that they're not forced into driving everywhere.
cpursley 3y ago
It's not so much about getting rid of the cars (just yet). I agree that electric vehicles don't solve the underlying issue. But we first need (we in North America, at least) a build environment designed for humans first (basically, copy what the Dutch have accomplished).
relativ575 3y ago
Did you know that car ownership in the Netherlands, the country renown for its cycling culture, has been on the rise? https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/10/car-fleet-growing-faster-than-population https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/10/car-fleet-growing-fast...
- Kim_Bruning 3y ago
  Besides having world class water infrastructure and great cycling infrastructure and great public transport -- would it surprise you that the Netherlands is also one of the better countries in the world to drive in? To steal a famous youtube channel's title: it's Not Just Bikes.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k "The Best Country In The World For Drivers" (This might be a slight exaggeration to get more youtube clicks? Who knows! But it tells the story ok)
  - jessekv 3y ago
    I've driven in a lot of counties and I can confirm NL is easily one of the best.

In city centres for sure. In the country side, the population density makes public transports more challenging. People could walk or bike or ski but that would reduce their life quality. It’s difficult to reduce your life quality unless you are forced. I don’t see country side people giving up their cars.

kiba 3y ago
Most people live in urban areas. Even in suburban areas, the bicycle could be a viable form of transportation. My grocery store is literally under ten minutes away by bike, but it is essentially a nightmare to bike to because of a lack of safe cycling infrastructures.
- mrangle 3y ago
  Bicycling is a viable form of transportation, for short distances and recreation. However, it isn't an option for many if not most needs outside of the house even in suburbia. Not to mention the rural areas / exurbs. A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike. Ignoring the inherent danger in getting to the store. I feel like this is a planning conversation for before the era when they decided to make US planning completely car centric and isolating, in a manner that can't be easily nor quickly reversed in a real way.
  - multjoy 3y ago
    >A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike They can if said bike is an e-cargo bike.
  - kiba 3y ago
    I am just saying that in my suburban context, a bike could make sense if there's proper bike infrastructure. It would also make sense if there's a plan to reduce the amount of traffic because the road is used for through traffic both way which makes residents in the neighborhoods being forced to wait a long time before they're able to enter the road safely. There's also a gas station much nearer, but it's not very easy to bike there. Walking there can get your shoes very muddy. There are also offices building nearby too, but once again, it's not very easy to get there on foot or bike. This is all within my local suburban context, but it's not easy to do when large stroad make it difficult to cross relatively short distance, or when protected bike lanes and sidewalks are extremely lacking, or when crossing the road is a dangerous activity or when getting to your local gas station might get your shoes muddy and wet.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
I would dispute that driving leads to a higher quality of life than walking/biking/skiing due to the health problems from lack of exercise. Driving certainly helps with long commutes, but are long commute times increasing the quality of life?
- ghusto 3y ago
  I agree that many of the drives out in the countryside should be bike rides, but not all. I’ve seen people driving their car to the supermarket <1km away for a handful of shopping, which is obviously bonkers. Then again, you sometimes need to drive somewhere or be cut off, which leads to poor mental health and quality of life.
- mrangle 3y ago
  Driving isn't negotiable, when living in the USA outside of the few major metros. Unless you've done it, you may not know what I mean. Most of the US is truly remote, even from the closest grocery store. Health doesn't play into the practical consideration of the way most of the country needs to traverse needed distances.
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    I've visited the U.S. a couple of times on holiday and even from that perspective, it's stunning just how many places are designed exclusively around the car. Even just walking from one shop to the next is awkward as they often have fences or hedges to separate them, so you have to walk from the shop, through the extensive car park, onto the main road that has no sidewalk and then into the next car park. But yes, you're right. If you design exclusively around the car then not using a car becomes very awkward. Also, without any meaningful public transport, the suburbs also lock in car usage. However, car usage is only really practical up to a certain density of people due to their poor space usage. When you get more people using cars, you need more roads and car parking space. This tends to separate the various amenities to fit in all the extra space, which then means that more people will need a car to travel to them due to the extra distance. That leads to yet more roads and more separation of the shops etc. until you reach a point where there's massive congestion at popular times. However, building more roads leads to induced demand and even more congestion, when the actual solution is to move facilities closer to where people live/work so that they're not forced into driving everywhere.

cpursley 3y ago

It's not so much about getting rid of the cars (just yet). I agree that electric vehicles don't solve the underlying issue. But we first need (we in North America, at least) a build environment designed for humans first (basically, copy what the Dutch have accomplished).

relativ575 3y ago

Did you know that car ownership in the Netherlands, the country renown for its cycling culture, has been on the rise? https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/10/car-fleet-growing-faster-than-population https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/10/car-fleet-growing-fast...

Kim_Bruning 3y ago
Besides having world class water infrastructure and great cycling infrastructure and great public transport -- would it surprise you that the Netherlands is also one of the better countries in the world to drive in? To steal a famous youtube channel's title: it's Not Just Bikes.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k "The Best Country In The World For Drivers" (This might be a slight exaggeration to get more youtube clicks? Who knows! But it tells the story ok)
- jessekv 3y ago
  I've driven in a lot of counties and I can confirm NL is easily one of the best.