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Please say more. What was this expected and how does it support the carbon-based hypothesis?
by foruhar 3y ago
Please say more. What was this expected and how does it support the carbon-based hypothesis?
- bluGill 3y agoThis supports the hypothesis that the early molecules we think are needed to get to life happen elsewhere in the universe. There are only a few chemistries that could even support life. Carbon is the one we know the most about, and also one that we find the most evidence for getting to that complex of chemistry in the real universe. Nobody knows of course, but odds seem good if there is other life out there is it carbon based. (nobody really can know either - the universe is so far away we can't really detect details very well)
- psadri 3y agoHydrogen, carbon and oxygen are amongst the most common elements in the universe. So probabilistically life will be carbon based. And it will probably be first formed in water. But it would develop tools on land once opposing thumbs are formed (from climbing trees). So I think there is a high chance aliens with technology will look a lot like us.
- jvanderbot 3y agoSnakes climb trees.
- nomel 3y agoNot nearly as well as monkeys, or any other legged thing you can find in a tree.
- jvanderbot 3y agoI'd say leopards are probably the best tree climbers. Or squirrels. Not a thumb between them.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nomel 3y agoLeopards can't begin to approach what a monkey can do [1], since they can't hang safely, since they don't have thumbs. Leopards rely on penetration of their claws, or being on top of the branches, like squirrels. It works for the squirrel because they're small, and the tension forces applied to the bark are negligible, so they can just crawl upside down. You won't see a leopard hanging from anything, in a non-comical way. A leopard does have an advantage of clawing up thick trunks, which is one of the reasons they hunt monkeys that are first on the ground, rather already in the trees. [1] https://youtu.be/9rdn26Hpdwo?feature=shared&t=118 https://youtu.be/9rdn26Hpdwo?feature=shared&t=118
- jvanderbot 3y agoSpeaking of hanging, you know who really climbs trees well though? Sloths. Great at hanging. Practically live up there. No thumbs.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nomel 3y agoYes great at hanging, like a coat hanger. You can only easily pull with a hook. With a thumb, you can push, pull, and easily grip, with much less risk of "unhooking". That's the same risk for a leopard: unhooking. Sloth can't climb a thinner vertical rope, or hang from a thinner branch, because their grip strength is relatively weak, due to the leverage. And, good luck using any sort of tool, like a stick to get terminates, with giant hooked claws!
- albertsondev 3y agoThat logic follows... right up until the leap to arboreal lifeforms with opposable thumbs being an inevitability (or even a prerequisite to tool use!). Opposable thumbs are not a guarantee. Nor are tree-dwelling lifeforms, nor trees, nor thumbs, nor digits, nor four limbs. For all we know, intelligent life elsewhere might better resemble intelligent octopi using alkaline metals as their first rudimentary energy source as we did with fire.
- cmrdporcupine 3y agoWhy even assume multicelluarity as some kind of inevitability? Hell, it took 2 billion years to get to single celled eukaryotes on earth. But the earth was teaming with prokaryotes the whole time, two entire separate branches of them, too, and they seem to have sprung into existence almost as soon as the earth cooled enough. There's still a lot more of them in terms of total weight than animals and protists. A lot.
- psadri 3y agoIt’s not inevitable. I was simply stating the most probable form for the life that DID get that far.
- psadri 3y agoI was describing the most probable path, not the only path. I do think that developing more sophisticated tools under water is difficult. Once you have plants on land, taller “trees” are very probable, because they are competing for light. Once you have trees, it’s likely that animals will climb then for safety or food. Once they climb, they will likely develop better gripping, etc… I guess another way to look at this is that life on Earth is not special (although it is still an insanely amazing occurrence).
- anigbrowl 3y agohttps://www.usatoday.com/story/life/animalkind/2023/12/13/thumbed-dolphin-gulf-corinth-greece/71912925007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/animalkind/2023/12/13/th...
- wolverine876 3y agoWhy do we assume land and trees, and everything required for them?
- andrewflnr 3y agoTrees, for one, have evolved convergently several times. You could arguably include those giant early fungus, too. Given land, trees will follow. Land mostly requires that your planet doesn't have too much water. Plate tectonics helps, but I'm not sure it's required.
- wolverine876 3y ago> Trees, for one, have evolved convergently several times. They evolved here. The whole question is how much their existence depends on Earth's specific environment, genetics, etc.
- deafpolygon 3y agoAt one point, this planet was covered in mushrooms!
- psadri 3y agoI think there are lots of worlds that don’t have dry land. I doubt they would develop advance technology - hard to build fire to melt metals. But perhaps nature will find another way?
- cocoa19 3y agoAbundant carbon is not the most compelling reason for aliens to be carbon based. Carbon is one of a few elements to be able to easily bind to other elements including itself and able to form long and complex chains. Silicon is another that can form long, complex chains.
- bluGill 3y agoBoth are needed. If it isn't abundant, then odds are against those long chains forming.
- somat 3y agoThe trace chemicals are even more interesting. Phosphorus while only needed in small amounts has a critical role in life as we know it. Phosphorus also turns out to be extremely rare in the known universe. to the point it is noteworthy to find a star that has it. https://www.sciencealert.com/lack-of-phosphorus-in-universe-is-bad-news-for-alien-life https://www.sciencealert.com/lack-of-phosphorus-in-universe-...
- bigbillheck 3y ago> it is noteworthy to find a star that has it. I don't think this is an accurate reading of that article. See forex https://arxiv.org/abs/1704.08282 https://arxiv.org/abs/1704.08282 whose abstract reads in part: > We also found average [P/Si] = 0.02 ± 0.07 and [P/S] = 0.15 ± 0.15 for our sample, showing no significant deviations from the solar ratios for [P/Si] and [P/S] ratios. Quoting from the introduction I find: Phosphorus abundances have been derived in planetary nebulae .... and in damped Lyman alpha systems using ionized phosphorus lines ... Anomalously high phosphorus abundances have been measured using optical phosphorus features in blue horizontal branch stars .... Molecular forms of phosphorus, such as PO, PN, and CP, have been detected and used to understand phosphorus chemistry in the interstellar medium ... or example, phosphorus molecules have been detected in the interstellar medium ... and in star forming regions ... Phosphorus molecules have also been found in the circumstellar envelopes of evolved stars (... Finally, the diffuse interstellar medium has been measured using P II lines....