5 ms·

Slightly off topic, but could someone explain why employees in the US keep having to form their own union at each company, rather than the employees just joinin

by dagw 3y ago

Slightly off topic, but could someone explain why employees in the US keep having to form their own union at each company, rather than the employees just joining an existing union? If I wanted to join a union where live, I'd just pick a relevant union, go to their home page, and click 'join'.

vasco 3y ago
And then what other than paying the fees? I'm not pro union, but without organizing with your peers in the same company I even see less point. The main aspect that I could see in unionizing is representing the voice of the workers of the company together. If you're alone working with an external entity or if your colleagues all join different ones I can't see any way of it working.
- tfourb 3y ago
  At least in Germany we have "sectoral bargaining" enshrined in law. The relevant union and the coalition of employers negotiate a deal (sometimes this process involves strike actions, if common ground can not be found initially). This deal automatically applies to all employees in the sector (i.e. metal workers). Some sectors do not have sectoral bargaining but certain unions have agreements with some subset of employers in that sector to have all their workers covered by any deal that is struck. The incentive for employers in those sectors (i.e. automotive) to join these agreements is that desirable employees usually prefer unionized shops, as they have better overall compensation packages and perks. Also they might not want to become the target of strikes. Not directly tied to unionization, workers in companies above a certain size have to be included in decision making (i.e. in public companies worker representatives get board seats) so a pro-union position often has a certain groundswell of support within a shop. For historic reasons, in some sectors union membership is part of the "culture", as well. Historically, unions have had an important role in upwards social mobility, popular education, culture, etc.
Kalium 3y ago
Long story very short, history. Unions in the US are organized shop by shop. You can go to a union's homepage and click "JOIN TODAY!" if you wish. It just doesn't create any obligation for your employer to care.
- _cenw 3y ago
  That's how unions work by default everywhere else too. It's just more common for entire industries to be unionized (through momentum, not outright obligation) outside the US.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    The way US system works, even when the entire industry is unionized, your union membership is generally through the "local" associated with your employer, not something independent of your current employment, with very few exceptions. That local may be part of an umbrella union that also covers the rest of your industry (or even a wide range of different industries, e.g., AFL-CIO or SEIU.)
  - 8372049 3y ago
    > That's how unions work by default everywhere else too. Not true for Norway, at least.
- comprev 3y ago
  My employer (Irish company) states in the employment contract they only recognise one union here in Ireland. I'm not familiar with Irish (or EU) law on unions but it did surprise me they were so specific. Edit: although I'm in tech I understand it covers everyone regardless of role
bee_rider 3y ago
If you are the only member of a particular union in your company, what additional leverage does that give you? You don’t gain any ability to do collective actions, right?
- 8372049 3y ago
  I'm not GP, but we're from the same country. There's multiple benefits from being unionized, even if you're the only one in your company to be in that particular union: - Your union is likely to negotiate salaries and benefits with the umbrella organization that the employer is part of. Strikes are usually some employees across a range of companies, rather than everyone at a single company. - If not, then the union can help you negotiate. - The union will give you legal aid if needed, whether it's advisory or for a court battle. We have very strong worker's rights, but sometimes companies try to bend the rules. - The union will arrange relevant seminars, courses etc. which are usually pretty cheap. - Several parts of the Working Environment Act only apply to workers whose unions have agreements (tariffavtale) with the employer. For example, if you have such an agreement you're entitled to 5 weeks of vacation instead of just 4 weeks and 1 day. https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62 https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62 But most of this is moot, since many employees in most companies are organized anyway. Like all civilized countries, unionizing is a right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights#Article_11_%E2%80%93_association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R...
pseudalopex 3y ago
Commonly US workers form local branches of existing unions. Federal law mandated local branches to limit union power.
patmorgan23 3y ago
There's a process you have to go through for a union to gain collective bargaining rights, I can go and join a union today, but they won't have the legal right to bargain between me and my employer unless they've gone through the process to become recognized. (Companies can voluntarily recognize a union but they are legally not required to, so they don't) Also usually when you hear that some group has 'formed their own union' they're still affiliating with an existing Union take the recently formed VFX Union, they're affiliated with IATSE.
legitster 3y ago
Unions in the US are a much different beast. Counterintuitively, Unions in the US have much more legal power in some ways than international counterparts - if they get officially recognized. But official recognition is only workplace-to-workplace and has an election process to follow: https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections Since it's more all-or-nothing per workplace, your membership is basically tied to the shop. And for some of these newer workplaces, they might not want the baggage that comes with some of the older unions. Some US unions work on a "hiring hall" model where your membership is not tied to a workplace. This includes electricians and plumbers and other tradespeople. And also actors and writers. But you cannot just join them if you want to. Generally you have to follow a several-year application or apprenticeship system.
- treyd 3y ago
  Also of note is that the US doesn't really have sectoral bargaining like, say, France does. This would prevent scenarios where nonunionized companices in a sector can start up and outperform established unionized ones just by hiring desperate people and paying them below the fair rate.
  - Nifty3929 3y ago
    The people who get hurt the most in that case would be the employees who aren't hired and the customers who are not served by the business that therefore does not start.
    - treyd 3y ago
      Yeah and then all the companies that pay their workers well are undercut by those that don't and all the now-unemployed workers have no choice but to work for less than a fair wage. Many such cases.
  - legitster 3y ago
    The US does in some sectors! But this traces all the way back to when two competing union organizations in the US (the AFL and CIO, before they merged) had major beef about how unions should operate. In the end, the CIO's model mostly won out. It would be really hard to do sectoral bargaining in the US because there are vastly different costs of living across the country but each state is required to have free trade with each other. So to have New York workers bargaining for Alabama workers or vis versa would be a disaster. It should also be worth pointing out that countries with sectoral bargaining also have huge number of self-employed and sole enterprise people. France has something like 2-3 times the number of self-employed people, and my understanding is that it's one of the only ways people in these economies can "opt-out" of bargaining agreements.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dontlaugh 3y ago
In the US unions only exist as a legal entity after a collective bargaining contract has been reached. In most other countries, before that point workers can still be union members “at large” get support from members in other workplaces and from the central union in their quest to gain recognition in their workplace.
- vidarh 3y ago
  Many US unions only represent you if you're in a unionised shop, but unions can represent you without a collective bargaining contract. The only issue is that legal rights are more limited. The IWW is an example of a union that accepts members from non-union shops both in the US and many other countries.

by dagw 3y ago

vasco 3y ago

And then what other than paying the fees? I'm not pro union, but without organizing with your peers in the same company I even see less point. The main aspect that I could see in unionizing is representing the voice of the workers of the company together. If you're alone working with an external entity or if your colleagues all join different ones I can't see any way of it working.

tfourb 3y ago
At least in Germany we have "sectoral bargaining" enshrined in law. The relevant union and the coalition of employers negotiate a deal (sometimes this process involves strike actions, if common ground can not be found initially). This deal automatically applies to all employees in the sector (i.e. metal workers). Some sectors do not have sectoral bargaining but certain unions have agreements with some subset of employers in that sector to have all their workers covered by any deal that is struck. The incentive for employers in those sectors (i.e. automotive) to join these agreements is that desirable employees usually prefer unionized shops, as they have better overall compensation packages and perks. Also they might not want to become the target of strikes. Not directly tied to unionization, workers in companies above a certain size have to be included in decision making (i.e. in public companies worker representatives get board seats) so a pro-union position often has a certain groundswell of support within a shop. For historic reasons, in some sectors union membership is part of the "culture", as well. Historically, unions have had an important role in upwards social mobility, popular education, culture, etc.

Kalium 3y ago

Long story very short, history. Unions in the US are organized shop by shop. You can go to a union's homepage and click "JOIN TODAY!" if you wish. It just doesn't create any obligation for your employer to care.

_cenw 3y ago
That's how unions work by default everywhere else too. It's just more common for entire industries to be unionized (through momentum, not outright obligation) outside the US.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  The way US system works, even when the entire industry is unionized, your union membership is generally through the "local" associated with your employer, not something independent of your current employment, with very few exceptions. That local may be part of an umbrella union that also covers the rest of your industry (or even a wide range of different industries, e.g., AFL-CIO or SEIU.)
- 8372049 3y ago
  > That's how unions work by default everywhere else too. Not true for Norway, at least.
comprev 3y ago
My employer (Irish company) states in the employment contract they only recognise one union here in Ireland. I'm not familiar with Irish (or EU) law on unions but it did surprise me they were so specific. Edit: although I'm in tech I understand it covers everyone regardless of role

bee_rider 3y ago

If you are the only member of a particular union in your company, what additional leverage does that give you? You don’t gain any ability to do collective actions, right?

8372049 3y ago
I'm not GP, but we're from the same country. There's multiple benefits from being unionized, even if you're the only one in your company to be in that particular union: - Your union is likely to negotiate salaries and benefits with the umbrella organization that the employer is part of. Strikes are usually some employees across a range of companies, rather than everyone at a single company. - If not, then the union can help you negotiate. - The union will give you legal aid if needed, whether it's advisory or for a court battle. We have very strong worker's rights, but sometimes companies try to bend the rules. - The union will arrange relevant seminars, courses etc. which are usually pretty cheap. - Several parts of the Working Environment Act only apply to workers whose unions have agreements (tariffavtale) with the employer. For example, if you have such an agreement you're entitled to 5 weeks of vacation instead of just 4 weeks and 1 day. https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62 https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62 But most of this is moot, since many employees in most companies are organized anyway. Like all civilized countries, unionizing is a right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights#Article_11_%E2%80%93_association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R...

pseudalopex 3y ago

Commonly US workers form local branches of existing unions. Federal law mandated local branches to limit union power.

patmorgan23 3y ago

There's a process you have to go through for a union to gain collective bargaining rights, I can go and join a union today, but they won't have the legal right to bargain between me and my employer unless they've gone through the process to become recognized. (Companies can voluntarily recognize a union but they are legally not required to, so they don't) Also usually when you hear that some group has 'formed their own union' they're still affiliating with an existing Union take the recently formed VFX Union, they're affiliated with IATSE.

legitster 3y ago

Unions in the US are a much different beast. Counterintuitively, Unions in the US have much more legal power in some ways than international counterparts - if they get officially recognized. But official recognition is only workplace-to-workplace and has an election process to follow: https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections Since it's more all-or-nothing per workplace, your membership is basically tied to the shop. And for some of these newer workplaces, they might not want the baggage that comes with some of the older unions. Some US unions work on a "hiring hall" model where your membership is not tied to a workplace. This includes electricians and plumbers and other tradespeople. And also actors and writers. But you cannot just join them if you want to. Generally you have to follow a several-year application or apprenticeship system.

treyd 3y ago
Also of note is that the US doesn't really have sectoral bargaining like, say, France does. This would prevent scenarios where nonunionized companices in a sector can start up and outperform established unionized ones just by hiring desperate people and paying them below the fair rate.
- Nifty3929 3y ago
  The people who get hurt the most in that case would be the employees who aren't hired and the customers who are not served by the business that therefore does not start.
  - treyd 3y ago
    Yeah and then all the companies that pay their workers well are undercut by those that don't and all the now-unemployed workers have no choice but to work for less than a fair wage. Many such cases.
- legitster 3y ago
  The US does in some sectors! But this traces all the way back to when two competing union organizations in the US (the AFL and CIO, before they merged) had major beef about how unions should operate. In the end, the CIO's model mostly won out. It would be really hard to do sectoral bargaining in the US because there are vastly different costs of living across the country but each state is required to have free trade with each other. So to have New York workers bargaining for Alabama workers or vis versa would be a disaster. It should also be worth pointing out that countries with sectoral bargaining also have huge number of self-employed and sole enterprise people. France has something like 2-3 times the number of self-employed people, and my understanding is that it's one of the only ways people in these economies can "opt-out" of bargaining agreements.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

dontlaugh 3y ago

In the US unions only exist as a legal entity after a collective bargaining contract has been reached. In most other countries, before that point workers can still be union members “at large” get support from members in other workplaces and from the central union in their quest to gain recognition in their workplace.

vidarh 3y ago
Many US unions only represent you if you're in a unionised shop, but unions can represent you without a collective bargaining contract. The only issue is that legal rights are more limited. The IWW is an example of a union that accepts members from non-union shops both in the US and many other countries.