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You realize how collective bargaining breaks down when you aren’t a united front right?

by vlovich123 3y ago

brightball 3y ago
If you are forced to be in the union, you're not united...you're coerced. If you choose to be, you are.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  I’m forced to pay taxes to the government and can’t opt out. Can still recognize that on balance it’s better in terms of building a larger, stable, more robust society than we’d have otherwise even with all the downsides that come with that coercion.
  - brightball 3y ago
    And yet, if you disagree you can still opt out of paying those taxes...by moving. Don't like the way your city, county or state spends the tax money? You can vote to change it or you can move. You can even do it nationally by moving to another country that you think does it better. We still get a choice. On balance, having a choice is always better than the alternative.
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      That’s a specious argument because you can equally say “You can choose by switching industries or going to a non-union employer or starting your own company”. In fact all of those can be easier than moving. Have you actually tried emigrating? Often not so easy unless you’re rich or have links to another country. In fact, it’s easier to join a non-union job than it is to move to a country without any form of taxation.
zbyte64 3y ago
I don't understand how people perceive corporations as an individual that seeks to negotiate with you on neutral grounds.
- brightball 3y ago
  They don't. But supply and demand still wins. A union may be necessary if there is a monopoly on employment. Nuclear power facilities for example.
  - zbyte64 3y ago
    Without unions, the logic of supply and demand favors larger businesses because they have greater purchasing power - they are already operating as a collective!
    - brightball 3y ago
      How do you figure? They have to compete against other businesses to hire skilled positions. They have to create an appealing enough opportunity to get people to apply and continue to work there.
      - zbyte64 3y ago
        > They have to compete against other businesses to hire skilled positions. Yes, but because they are a collective when they "purchase" skilled positions they are usually asking for more than one hire. Yes they are competing against other businesses, and the perspective hires are competing against the other hires. By the numbers, there are fewer businesses hiring then there are workers looking for that position. In other words, the businesses have more leverage then the workers in the form of purchasing power. The laws of supply and demand favor the business if there are no unions. Edit: FYI: supply and demand for labor is equal when unemployment is at 0%.

You realize how collective bargaining breaks down when you aren’t a united front right?

brightball 3y ago

If you are forced to be in the union, you're not united...you're coerced. If you choose to be, you are.

vlovich123 3y ago
I’m forced to pay taxes to the government and can’t opt out. Can still recognize that on balance it’s better in terms of building a larger, stable, more robust society than we’d have otherwise even with all the downsides that come with that coercion.
- brightball 3y ago
  And yet, if you disagree you can still opt out of paying those taxes...by moving. Don't like the way your city, county or state spends the tax money? You can vote to change it or you can move. You can even do it nationally by moving to another country that you think does it better. We still get a choice. On balance, having a choice is always better than the alternative.
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    That’s a specious argument because you can equally say “You can choose by switching industries or going to a non-union employer or starting your own company”. In fact all of those can be easier than moving. Have you actually tried emigrating? Often not so easy unless you’re rich or have links to another country. In fact, it’s easier to join a non-union job than it is to move to a country without any form of taxation.

zbyte64 3y ago

I don't understand how people perceive corporations as an individual that seeks to negotiate with you on neutral grounds.

brightball 3y ago
They don't. But supply and demand still wins. A union may be necessary if there is a monopoly on employment. Nuclear power facilities for example.
- zbyte64 3y ago
  Without unions, the logic of supply and demand favors larger businesses because they have greater purchasing power - they are already operating as a collective!
  - brightball 3y ago
    How do you figure? They have to compete against other businesses to hire skilled positions. They have to create an appealing enough opportunity to get people to apply and continue to work there.
    - zbyte64 3y ago
      > They have to compete against other businesses to hire skilled positions. Yes, but because they are a collective when they "purchase" skilled positions they are usually asking for more than one hire. Yes they are competing against other businesses, and the perspective hires are competing against the other hires. By the numbers, there are fewer businesses hiring then there are workers looking for that position. In other words, the businesses have more leverage then the workers in the form of purchasing power. The laws of supply and demand favor the business if there are no unions. Edit: FYI: supply and demand for labor is equal when unemployment is at 0%.