4 ms·

For another perspective on this, as a Eurpoean (well, British) gay man who lives in a neighborhood with lots of Muslim immigrants in it, I am much more concerne

by foldr 3y ago

For another perspective on this, as a Eurpoean (well, British) gay man who lives in a neighborhood with lots of Muslim immigrants in it, I am much more concerned with threats to LGBT rights coming from domestic right-wing political sources. As the sibling comment points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority groups off against each other than it is of any facts on the ground. They love it when gays are more worried about 'foreign' Muslim immigrants than they are about the domestic politicians who are actually gearing up to pass anti-LGBT legislation.

richbell 3y ago
> As the sister post points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority groups off against each other than it is of any facts on the ground. This is a strange argument to make. There are nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide, they are not a minority. In Canada, Muslims are some of the loudest voices against LGBT rights and representation. Another example in the states: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/202...
- foldr 3y ago
  Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to. Getting the dafter elements of the Muslim community worked up about trans people is approximately as easy as getting the dafter elements of the gay community worked up about Muslims. The right is very good at stirring this particular pot. I personally have no doubt where the real threat to my rights comes from.
  - richbell 3y ago
    > Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to Regardless, it is misleading to cast them as a minority group in the same way as the LGBT population. They have global solidarity and power. > I personally have no doubt where the real threat to my rights comes from. It's not mutually exclusive. Radical elements from the Muslim community have long since propagated such beliefs, it's bizarre to act as if "the right stirring the pot" is the only reason such beliefs exist. Of course, there are many peaceful and tolerant Muslims. I personally know several people who moved to western countries to escape the radical elements of their home country. Those same radical elements are now (~10-15 years) immigrating and bringing their beliefs with them.
    - foldr 3y ago
      I think you understand perfectly how Muslims are a minority group in the context of a conversation about European xenophobia. But you could delete the word ‘minority’ from my original post and it would still make the same point, so I am not sure why you keep picking at this detail. >it's bizarre to act as if "the right stirring the pot" is the only reason such beliefs exist. It would be bizarre, but I didn’t say this. There are individual people who are bigoted, which is bad, and then there are people who are making strategic use of bigotry to achieve political ends. At least in the UK, where I have the most knowledge, the current threat to LGBT rights (currently centered on various pieces of anti-trans legislation) has nothing to do with Muslims. What if we look more broadly at the European countries that have actually seen major regressions in LGBT rights? Poland and Hungary are the obvious examples. Are Muslims to blame here? On the contrary, we see that the very countries that are most hostile to immigration and religious diversity are also (surprise surprise!) hostile to gay people. On the one hand, then, we have a largely imaginary threat to LGBT rights coming from a supposed invasion of Muslim extremists, and on the other, a real threat stemming from a long and thoroughly ‘indigenous’ European far-right tradition.
      - snyedd 3y ago
        > At least in the UK, where I have the most knowledge, the current threat to LGBT rights (currently cantered on various pieces of anti-trans legislation) It's pro-women legislation that is being proposed. Specifically, legislation to keep men who pretend to be women out of female-only spaces. This actually is of benefit to the LGB, lesbians in particular. If that is "anti-trans" then it just illustrates how so-called "trans rights" are an encroachment on women's rights.
        foldr 3y ago
        That is a separate debate. The point is that it's the kind of legislation that would also be supported by conservative Muslims and conservative religious people in general. If you think that trans women are 'men who pretend to be women' then you probably have relatively little to fear from a social agenda driven by recently-immigrated Muslim extremists, were such a thing to pass. Indeed, they would probably be useful allies.
selfmodruntime 3y ago
I really do not like to do this on HN, but you‘re either outright lying or living in a privileged living situation near educated muslims who are already beginning to assimilate. I figure you are living in the US, where stringent immigration laws protect you. Europe is suffering from mass immigration of people with - in our opinion - close to extremist values. A conservative German who dislikes gay people is much less threatening. Gay and trans people are even more of a minority than muslims, and only one party is actively threatening the other. My institution offers protection of ex-muslim women and gay people. Their stories are harrowing. And these people have lived in Germany for generations.
- foldr 3y ago
  >I figure you are living in the US, where stringent immigration laws protect you. I'm living in the UK. (I thought this was obvious from my post; I'm not sure why you would jump to the conclusion that I'm living in the US.) Homophobia within Muslim communities is certainly a serious problem for gay muslims. However, as I said elsewhere in this thread, you only have to look at the European countries where LGBT rights are actually under serious threat to see that Muslim immigrants are not the primary problem. Orbán agrees with you about Muslims – but how's he doing on gay rights? You are willing to accuse me of lying and to jump to jump to bizarre conclusions about my living circumstances. I won't do you the same discourtesy, but it is always disappointing to see LGBT people using LGBT rights as a smokescreen for xenophobia and other prejudices. This only aids and abets people on the far right who couldn't give two hoots about our rights, but who are only too happy to opportunistically capture the votes of useful idiots within the gay community.

by foldr 3y ago

richbell 3y ago

> As the sister post points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority groups off against each other than it is of any facts on the ground. This is a strange argument to make. There are nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide, they are not a minority. In Canada, Muslims are some of the loudest voices against LGBT rights and representation. Another example in the states: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/202...

foldr 3y ago
Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to. Getting the dafter elements of the Muslim community worked up about trans people is approximately as easy as getting the dafter elements of the gay community worked up about Muslims. The right is very good at stirring this particular pot. I personally have no doubt where the real threat to my rights comes from.
- richbell 3y ago
  > Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to Regardless, it is misleading to cast them as a minority group in the same way as the LGBT population. They have global solidarity and power. > I personally have no doubt where the real threat to my rights comes from. It's not mutually exclusive. Radical elements from the Muslim community have long since propagated such beliefs, it's bizarre to act as if "the right stirring the pot" is the only reason such beliefs exist. Of course, there are many peaceful and tolerant Muslims. I personally know several people who moved to western countries to escape the radical elements of their home country. Those same radical elements are now (~10-15 years) immigrating and bringing their beliefs with them.
  - foldr 3y ago
    I think you understand perfectly how Muslims are a minority group in the context of a conversation about European xenophobia. But you could delete the word ‘minority’ from my original post and it would still make the same point, so I am not sure why you keep picking at this detail. >it's bizarre to act as if "the right stirring the pot" is the only reason such beliefs exist. It would be bizarre, but I didn’t say this. There are individual people who are bigoted, which is bad, and then there are people who are making strategic use of bigotry to achieve political ends. At least in the UK, where I have the most knowledge, the current threat to LGBT rights (currently centered on various pieces of anti-trans legislation) has nothing to do with Muslims. What if we look more broadly at the European countries that have actually seen major regressions in LGBT rights? Poland and Hungary are the obvious examples. Are Muslims to blame here? On the contrary, we see that the very countries that are most hostile to immigration and religious diversity are also (surprise surprise!) hostile to gay people. On the one hand, then, we have a largely imaginary threat to LGBT rights coming from a supposed invasion of Muslim extremists, and on the other, a real threat stemming from a long and thoroughly ‘indigenous’ European far-right tradition.
    - snyedd 3y ago
      > At least in the UK, where I have the most knowledge, the current threat to LGBT rights (currently cantered on various pieces of anti-trans legislation) It's pro-women legislation that is being proposed. Specifically, legislation to keep men who pretend to be women out of female-only spaces. This actually is of benefit to the LGB, lesbians in particular. If that is "anti-trans" then it just illustrates how so-called "trans rights" are an encroachment on women's rights.
      - foldr 3y ago
        That is a separate debate. The point is that it's the kind of legislation that would also be supported by conservative Muslims and conservative religious people in general. If you think that trans women are 'men who pretend to be women' then you probably have relatively little to fear from a social agenda driven by recently-immigrated Muslim extremists, were such a thing to pass. Indeed, they would probably be useful allies.

selfmodruntime 3y ago

I really do not like to do this on HN, but you‘re either outright lying or living in a privileged living situation near educated muslims who are already beginning to assimilate. I figure you are living in the US, where stringent immigration laws protect you. Europe is suffering from mass immigration of people with - in our opinion - close to extremist values. A conservative German who dislikes gay people is much less threatening. Gay and trans people are even more of a minority than muslims, and only one party is actively threatening the other. My institution offers protection of ex-muslim women and gay people. Their stories are harrowing. And these people have lived in Germany for generations.

foldr 3y ago
>I figure you are living in the US, where stringent immigration laws protect you. I'm living in the UK. (I thought this was obvious from my post; I'm not sure why you would jump to the conclusion that I'm living in the US.) Homophobia within Muslim communities is certainly a serious problem for gay muslims. However, as I said elsewhere in this thread, you only have to look at the European countries where LGBT rights are actually under serious threat to see that Muslim immigrants are not the primary problem. Orbán agrees with you about Muslims – but how's he doing on gay rights? You are willing to accuse me of lying and to jump to jump to bizarre conclusions about my living circumstances. I won't do you the same discourtesy, but it is always disappointing to see LGBT people using LGBT rights as a smokescreen for xenophobia and other prejudices. This only aids and abets people on the far right who couldn't give two hoots about our rights, but who are only too happy to opportunistically capture the votes of useful idiots within the gay community.