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Is this really a problem? I seriously doubt many people are going to leave someone out because they use an Android phone. I certainly won't because I like com

Is this really a problem? I seriously doubt many people are going to leave someone out because they use an Android phone. I certainly won't because I like communicating with people and people are far more important than technology.

vintermann 3y ago
That's nice of you, but by all accounts from the US (where iphone is dominant): Yes, it's a problem. The visual marking and decreased integration/service towards users of non-iphones is pretty obviously part of why Apple has such a big phone market share in the US - if not, they wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep those anti-features. There's plenty of examples of Apple being quite open and friendly to integration when it benefits them, and here they aren't, so it isn't.
- Twisell 3y ago
  Well in Europe Android is dominating the market (but with a very fragmented experience depending on Android version). The result is that as an iPhone users I feel sometimes feel left out because different friends circles on Android turn to different secured messaging services (WhatsApp, FB messenger, Telegram, Signal, etc...). I firmly refuse to give my personal ID to all theses companies just to keep in touch so I often default to sms/mail (or I get left out of group chat). iMessage is not perfect but they did get the sms fallback right and with upcoming RCS support maybe it'll be easier to bypass theses competing closed and incompatible walled gardens. So from my point of view, the whole "blue bubble" tyranny look like a joke. Apple kept conformance with SMS/MMS standards from the beginning and added a secure layer on top. I wish others services just did the same.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    > iMessage is not perfect but they did get the sms fallback right Did they though? It’s unreliable. Other than this point, I very much share your position.
  - vintermann 3y ago
    I can understand not trusting FB, but you have to give out the ID you want people to be able to find you by. What you give to Signal is probably less than what's in the phone directory. > I wish others services just did the same. Signal did, then someone convinced them that the risk of accidentally sending an SMS which you thought were an encrypted message, was bad enough to break messaging integration on Android. I wonder if whoever convinced them of that maybe didn't want it to be so convenient to use.
    - whyoh 3y ago
      Signal is strongly focused on secure communication, so it never made any sense for it to support SMS/MMS. I think bundling different protocols in the same app is a bad idea in general. Besides the security and functionality problems, it just creates confusion. The whole iMessage/bubble-color mess wouldn't exist if Apple made it clear to their users that the iMessage protocol is different from SMS and incompatible with most phones.
      - vintermann 3y ago
        Well imessage does the exact same thing. It doesn't seem to confuse the users. More basic protocols as a fallback mechanism can be a good idea, if you understand the risks (and of course, if you allow the recipient to use the better protocol!) Signal always warned me very clearly if it was forced to send a message via SMS, and even pushed me to invite the recipient to Signal. It made sense to support it still, because it's the second most basic service in the Android world (after calls), and now that Signal doesn't offer it, it can't be the default service any longer. Signal's task as I see it isn't just to protect your communication, but encourage widespread use of strong encryption so that you don't stand out for using it. For that, there are tradeoffs. I think being able to handle the forced insecure communication for the user, clearly marked as such, was a great tradeoff for the sake of wider adoption.
        whyoh 3y ago
        >Well imessage does the exact same thing. It doesn't seem to confuse the users. What % of iPhone users do you think understand the difference between SMS, MMS and iMessage protocols? I bet most don't. But if iMessage had its own separate app, they would know it's an Apple-only protocol. And that would make them less likely to exclude non-iPhone users and more likely to use cross-platform alternatives. It's not like all iPhone are jerks, they're being mislead on how "texting" in the default iPhone app really works. That's what I meant by confusion.
  - whyoh 3y ago
    >Apple kept conformance with SMS/MMS standards from the beginning and added a secure layer on top. iMessage is not a "secure layer on top", it's a totally separate proprietary protocol and it requires an Apple account to work. It just happens to run in the same app as SMS/MMS messages, which has its pros and cons.
    - curt15 3y ago
      This. A "secure layer on top" would be something more like HTTPS over HTTP.
    - spectre3d 3y ago
      >it requires an Apple account to work Not true. “The “magic” is that you don’t have to sign up for an account, or create a new username or account identifier. You just send a message from your phone number to another phone number, and if both numbers are registered for iMessage, the message goes over iMessage instead of SMS, even if you don’t have an Apple ID. Beeper had that working last week. Now, Beeper users need to have an Apple ID, and sign into that Apple ID within Beeper. (Beeper should actively encourage users to create and use an app-specific Apple ID password[1] for Beeper.)”[2] [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102654 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102654 [2] https://daringfireball.net/2023/12/beeper_mini_is_back https://daringfireball.net/2023/12/beeper_mini_is_back
  - Zak 3y ago
    > as an iPhone users I feel sometimes feel left out because... I firmly refuse to give my personal ID to all theses companies just to keep in touch You're not left out because of what kind of phone you use. You're left out because you refuse to use messaging apps that are available for your phone.
    - joshmanders 3y ago
      And yet here we are, in a thread about a service abusing Apple's servers to make something available to the opposite crowd who feels left out because they refuse to use messaging apps that are available for their phones.
      - Volundr 3y ago
        Look I think Beeper Mini and the whole thing is silly, but no, Android users are not refusing to use the apps available for their phones. iMessage is not available for Android.
- Grustaf 3y ago
  It’s not just about market share. In Scandinavia about 90% of middle class people use iphones, but this whole blue-green bubble nonsense is a total non-issue. We have group chats in whatsapp, fb messages or sms, nobody cares.
  - vintermann 3y ago
    > In Scandinavia about 90% of middle class people use iphones Whoa, citation needed there. I don't use one, and most people I know don't use one.
    - hocuspocus 3y ago
      That's an exaggeration but I assume 70-80% in upper middle class would be realistic? At least in Norway and Denmark, maybe a bit less so in Sweden.
      - zulln 3y ago
        The numbers differ a bit in different sources, but seems to be around 60% for Sweden. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/sweden https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/sweden Based on that upper middle class being a bit more common seems likely. Regardless, the original point stands regardless of it being 50% or 80%.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      Aren't you part of the royal family?
    - Grustaf 3y ago
      In the upper middle class in Copenhagen it’s more than that, seeing an android phone is very rare. Even in the metro you can go days without seeing one.
  - filoleg 3y ago
    This makes me wonder, what’s the iMessage situation in Japan? Their smartphone market is also majority iOS, sitting at above 60% (while it is only a little bit above 50% for the US)[0]. Despite that, I am yet to hear about their version of the whole “blue bubble exclusion” controversy. It could definitely be just due to the japanese users not being super active on western internet, and not necessarily due to that controversy not being a thing in Japan. But it could just be a non-issue in Japan. Can anyone with knowledge of this chime in? 0. https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-android-dominates-in-china-and-india https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-...
SkeuomorphicBee 3y ago
This is a problem, out of band communication is always a second titer and always overlooked, always incomplete. We as developers see this every day with documentation running out of date in relation to code. The same way the out of group communication falls behind the primary channel.
geraldwhen 3y ago
One Android user means you can no longer send images, video, gifs, or emoji. You can’t react to messages. Sending and receiving no longer works on wifi, so it doesn’t work well in many workplaces. SMS is a disaster, so it’s best just to leave out the green bubbles.
- everforward 3y ago
  Just to add to this, iPhones send potato quality video to Android. I am constantly reminding my family that uses iOS that they have to send an iCloud link. The videos are genuinely useless, I don't know why Apple bothers. It sends like 240p "90s security camera" quality video. I can't tell who anyone is, I once thought a bear in a video was a wolf. Iirc, Android pops up some kind of "this video is too large, do you want to share it with Photos instead?" modal that converts it to a Photos link instead of sharing directly. That's not perfect, but it's a damn site better than sending a video that you know is useless.
- StressedDev 3y ago
  iPhone users can react to messages when Android users are in a chat. Also, I would not call SMS a "disaster". It works well for text messages and images. These are the two most important things for most people. Also, I have sent images to Android users and they have never complained about image quality. I really think some people are overstating the importance of iMessage. Does it add some nice features? Yes. Is it amazing? Nope. Also, I suspect that the discrimination problem is more of a people problem. Basically, the people who discriminate will find something else to discriminate on if they did not have iMessage.

vintermann 3y ago

That's nice of you, but by all accounts from the US (where iphone is dominant): Yes, it's a problem. The visual marking and decreased integration/service towards users of non-iphones is pretty obviously part of why Apple has such a big phone market share in the US - if not, they wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep those anti-features. There's plenty of examples of Apple being quite open and friendly to integration when it benefits them, and here they aren't, so it isn't.

Twisell 3y ago
Well in Europe Android is dominating the market (but with a very fragmented experience depending on Android version). The result is that as an iPhone users I feel sometimes feel left out because different friends circles on Android turn to different secured messaging services (WhatsApp, FB messenger, Telegram, Signal, etc...). I firmly refuse to give my personal ID to all theses companies just to keep in touch so I often default to sms/mail (or I get left out of group chat). iMessage is not perfect but they did get the sms fallback right and with upcoming RCS support maybe it'll be easier to bypass theses competing closed and incompatible walled gardens. So from my point of view, the whole "blue bubble" tyranny look like a joke. Apple kept conformance with SMS/MMS standards from the beginning and added a secure layer on top. I wish others services just did the same.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > iMessage is not perfect but they did get the sms fallback right Did they though? It’s unreliable. Other than this point, I very much share your position.
- vintermann 3y ago
  I can understand not trusting FB, but you have to give out the ID you want people to be able to find you by. What you give to Signal is probably less than what's in the phone directory. > I wish others services just did the same. Signal did, then someone convinced them that the risk of accidentally sending an SMS which you thought were an encrypted message, was bad enough to break messaging integration on Android. I wonder if whoever convinced them of that maybe didn't want it to be so convenient to use.
  - whyoh 3y ago
    Signal is strongly focused on secure communication, so it never made any sense for it to support SMS/MMS. I think bundling different protocols in the same app is a bad idea in general. Besides the security and functionality problems, it just creates confusion. The whole iMessage/bubble-color mess wouldn't exist if Apple made it clear to their users that the iMessage protocol is different from SMS and incompatible with most phones.
    - vintermann 3y ago
      Well imessage does the exact same thing. It doesn't seem to confuse the users. More basic protocols as a fallback mechanism can be a good idea, if you understand the risks (and of course, if you allow the recipient to use the better protocol!) Signal always warned me very clearly if it was forced to send a message via SMS, and even pushed me to invite the recipient to Signal. It made sense to support it still, because it's the second most basic service in the Android world (after calls), and now that Signal doesn't offer it, it can't be the default service any longer. Signal's task as I see it isn't just to protect your communication, but encourage widespread use of strong encryption so that you don't stand out for using it. For that, there are tradeoffs. I think being able to handle the forced insecure communication for the user, clearly marked as such, was a great tradeoff for the sake of wider adoption.
      - whyoh 3y ago
        >Well imessage does the exact same thing. It doesn't seem to confuse the users. What % of iPhone users do you think understand the difference between SMS, MMS and iMessage protocols? I bet most don't. But if iMessage had its own separate app, they would know it's an Apple-only protocol. And that would make them less likely to exclude non-iPhone users and more likely to use cross-platform alternatives. It's not like all iPhone are jerks, they're being mislead on how "texting" in the default iPhone app really works. That's what I meant by confusion.
- whyoh 3y ago
  >Apple kept conformance with SMS/MMS standards from the beginning and added a secure layer on top. iMessage is not a "secure layer on top", it's a totally separate proprietary protocol and it requires an Apple account to work. It just happens to run in the same app as SMS/MMS messages, which has its pros and cons.
  - curt15 3y ago
    This. A "secure layer on top" would be something more like HTTPS over HTTP.
  - spectre3d 3y ago
    >it requires an Apple account to work Not true. “The “magic” is that you don’t have to sign up for an account, or create a new username or account identifier. You just send a message from your phone number to another phone number, and if both numbers are registered for iMessage, the message goes over iMessage instead of SMS, even if you don’t have an Apple ID. Beeper had that working last week. Now, Beeper users need to have an Apple ID, and sign into that Apple ID within Beeper. (Beeper should actively encourage users to create and use an app-specific Apple ID password[1] for Beeper.)”[2] [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102654 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102654 [2] https://daringfireball.net/2023/12/beeper_mini_is_back https://daringfireball.net/2023/12/beeper_mini_is_back
- Zak 3y ago
  > as an iPhone users I feel sometimes feel left out because... I firmly refuse to give my personal ID to all theses companies just to keep in touch You're not left out because of what kind of phone you use. You're left out because you refuse to use messaging apps that are available for your phone.
  - joshmanders 3y ago
    And yet here we are, in a thread about a service abusing Apple's servers to make something available to the opposite crowd who feels left out because they refuse to use messaging apps that are available for their phones.
    - Volundr 3y ago
      Look I think Beeper Mini and the whole thing is silly, but no, Android users are not refusing to use the apps available for their phones. iMessage is not available for Android.
Grustaf 3y ago
It’s not just about market share. In Scandinavia about 90% of middle class people use iphones, but this whole blue-green bubble nonsense is a total non-issue. We have group chats in whatsapp, fb messages or sms, nobody cares.
- vintermann 3y ago
  > In Scandinavia about 90% of middle class people use iphones Whoa, citation needed there. I don't use one, and most people I know don't use one.
  - hocuspocus 3y ago
    That's an exaggeration but I assume 70-80% in upper middle class would be realistic? At least in Norway and Denmark, maybe a bit less so in Sweden.
    - zulln 3y ago
      The numbers differ a bit in different sources, but seems to be around 60% for Sweden. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/sweden https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/sweden Based on that upper middle class being a bit more common seems likely. Regardless, the original point stands regardless of it being 50% or 80%.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    Aren't you part of the royal family?
  - Grustaf 3y ago
    In the upper middle class in Copenhagen it’s more than that, seeing an android phone is very rare. Even in the metro you can go days without seeing one.
- filoleg 3y ago
  This makes me wonder, what’s the iMessage situation in Japan? Their smartphone market is also majority iOS, sitting at above 60% (while it is only a little bit above 50% for the US)[0]. Despite that, I am yet to hear about their version of the whole “blue bubble exclusion” controversy. It could definitely be just due to the japanese users not being super active on western internet, and not necessarily due to that controversy not being a thing in Japan. But it could just be a non-issue in Japan. Can anyone with knowledge of this chime in? 0. https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-android-dominates-in-china-and-india https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-...

SkeuomorphicBee 3y ago

This is a problem, out of band communication is always a second titer and always overlooked, always incomplete. We as developers see this every day with documentation running out of date in relation to code. The same way the out of group communication falls behind the primary channel.

geraldwhen 3y ago

One Android user means you can no longer send images, video, gifs, or emoji. You can’t react to messages. Sending and receiving no longer works on wifi, so it doesn’t work well in many workplaces. SMS is a disaster, so it’s best just to leave out the green bubbles.

everforward 3y ago
Just to add to this, iPhones send potato quality video to Android. I am constantly reminding my family that uses iOS that they have to send an iCloud link. The videos are genuinely useless, I don't know why Apple bothers. It sends like 240p "90s security camera" quality video. I can't tell who anyone is, I once thought a bear in a video was a wolf. Iirc, Android pops up some kind of "this video is too large, do you want to share it with Photos instead?" modal that converts it to a Photos link instead of sharing directly. That's not perfect, but it's a damn site better than sending a video that you know is useless.
StressedDev 3y ago
iPhone users can react to messages when Android users are in a chat. Also, I would not call SMS a "disaster". It works well for text messages and images. These are the two most important things for most people. Also, I have sent images to Android users and they have never complained about image quality. I really think some people are overstating the importance of iMessage. Does it add some nice features? Yes. Is it amazing? Nope. Also, I suspect that the discrimination problem is more of a people problem. Basically, the people who discriminate will find something else to discriminate on if they did not have iMessage.