4 ms·

> Why shouldn’t we do it first, before you do? We? > why is it impermissible to lobby the state legislator to select alternate electors? (Which is technically

> Why shouldn’t we do it first, before you do? We? > why is it impermissible to lobby the state legislator to select alternate electors? (Which is technically constitutional.) Evidently you've drunk the Kool-Aid of the ... worthies who push the "independent state legislature" doctrine. Oh, and: You don't regard Trump's sending a mob to the Capitol (he knew they were armed, the Secret Service had told him), telling them they had to "fight like hell," egging them on via Twitter, and then waiting hours to half-heartedly call them off, doesn't count as trying to sabotage the Electoral College vote count?

skissane 3y ago
> Evidently you've drunk the Kool-Aid of the ... worthies who push the "independent state legislature" doctrine. What rayiner is talking about here has nothing to do with that doctrine. I explained in another comment 2-3 months back, so I'll just link to that rather than repeat myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37541248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37541248
- rayiner 3y ago
  Yes, correct.
rayiner 3y ago
> Evidently you've drunk the Kool-Aid of the ... worthies who push the "independent state legislature" doctrine. It’s more well-founded in the constitution than some precedents near-and-dear to democrats… But actually, I don’t think the standard for litigating elections should be whether you can come up with a colorable legal theory to support your position.[1] Thats why I cited the Gore example. Just because there’s a legal theory that supports trying to game manual recounts doesn’t mean you should do it. Because once that becomes the standard (and unfortunately it has) the other side will do it too. [1] I don’t think you should be able to litigate elections at all. The rules should be set in stone a year ahead and not subject to challenge, and everything should be done in one day with public counting the way the Taiwanese do it. > Oh, and: You don't regard Trump's sending a mob to the Capitol (he knew they were armed, the Secret Service had told him), telling them they had to "fight like hell," egging them on via Twitter, and then waiting hours to half-heartedly call them off, doesn't count as trying to sabotage the Electoral College vote count? Is “fight like hell” categorically different than “get in their face” https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/25/politics/maxine-waters-trump-officials/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/25/politics/maxine-waters-trump-.... Is lighting cities on fire for months categorically different? It’s ugly, low-brow politics, like Democrats pioneered. I’d love to ban all of it. But I’m not impressed by efforts to draw categorical distinctions between different events. Either egging on rioting and political violence is acceptable or it’s not. Democrats have apparently decided it’s acceptable.
- dctoedt 3y ago
  > Just because there’s a legal theory that supports trying to game manual recounts doesn’t mean you should do it. On that, we agree. But I've come around to the view that SCOTUS should have let the 2000 Florida recount proceed, with appropriate guardrails, instead of just shutting it down. > Is “fight like hell” categorically different than “get in their face” .... Is lighting cities on fire for months categorically different? ... Either egging on rioting and political violence is acceptable or it’s not. Democrats have apparently decided it’s acceptable. Your last-quoted sentence just above is nonsense; the first rhetorical question betrays black-and-white thinking; and the second rhetorical question assumes facts not in evidence. (We agree about the "Either egging on rioting ..." part.) First of all, context matters: It's one thing for a semi-backbencher congresswoman to say "get in their face." It's another matter entirely for the outgoing POTUS to say, "fight like hell" on Vote Counting Day to an armed mob that he summoned, and then to send them off to the location of the counting, and finally to sit watching them on TV (and even encouraging them) as they storm the Capitol and cause elected representatives to flee for their lives. Second: If you feel compelled to paint all "Democrats" with the same brush, then please don't use Maxine Waters — and sure as hell don't use sporadic acts of arson (NOT "lighting cities on fire for months") — as supposedly being representative of Dems. Otherwise, we could proclaim, "Republicans want to execute Jews who invoke Satan," or whatever TF it was that was said in the moronic video clip that was making the rounds a couple of days ago. Every large group has its outliers, and its idiots, and its dangerous idiots.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 3y ago
    > On that, we agree. But I've come around to the view that SCOTUS should have let the 2000 Florida recount proceed, with appropriate guardrails, instead of just shutting it down. No, the machine recount should have been the final word. It doesn’t actually matter what the votes were—from a statistical standpoint it was a tie. It’s more important that the process not seem open to manipulation (and the process happening in Florida was not something anyone could trust). >,First of all, context matters: No, baseline political norms must be black and white. Political parties disagree about fundamental things, like God and how to raise children. They often find each other’s values disgusting, and worry about how their kids will fare in the country the other side is creating. These people will never see eye to eye on context-laden issues. The norms must be such that you can operate within them alongside people you don’t like and don’t trust. > It's one thing for one backbencher congresswoman to say "get in their face." It's another matter entirely for the outgoing POTUS to say, "fight like hell" on Vote Counting Day to an armed mob that he summoned and then to send them off to the location of the counting, and finally to sit watching them on TV (and even encouraging them) as they invade the Capitol and disrupt the proceedings. It’s a difference in degree (e.g. protests to disrupt the Kavanaugh hearing) not a difference in kind. Especially when you consider something like RESISTANCE—taxpayer paid employees of the federal government basically committing mutiny against their CEO that the taxpayers duly elected. > Second: If you feel compelled to paint all "Democrats" with the same brush, then please don't use Maxine Waters — and sure as hell don't use sporadic acts of arson (NOT "lighting cities on fire for months") — as supposedly being representative of Dems. It wasn’t isolated acts of arson. Every storefront in my wife’s office block in DC was smashed. Courthouses were lit on fire in Portland. And the whole Democratic Party sanctioned and egged on the rioting, saying “riots are the voice of the unheard,” for months.

skissane 3y ago

> Evidently you've drunk the Kool-Aid of the ... worthies who push the "independent state legislature" doctrine. What rayiner is talking about here has nothing to do with that doctrine. I explained in another comment 2-3 months back, so I'll just link to that rather than repeat myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37541248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37541248

rayiner 3y ago
Yes, correct.

rayiner 3y ago

> Evidently you've drunk the Kool-Aid of the ... worthies who push the "independent state legislature" doctrine. It’s more well-founded in the constitution than some precedents near-and-dear to democrats… But actually, I don’t think the standard for litigating elections should be whether you can come up with a colorable legal theory to support your position.[1] Thats why I cited the Gore example. Just because there’s a legal theory that supports trying to game manual recounts doesn’t mean you should do it. Because once that becomes the standard (and unfortunately it has) the other side will do it too. [1] I don’t think you should be able to litigate elections at all. The rules should be set in stone a year ahead and not subject to challenge, and everything should be done in one day with public counting the way the Taiwanese do it. > Oh, and: You don't regard Trump's sending a mob to the Capitol (he knew they were armed, the Secret Service had told him), telling them they had to "fight like hell," egging them on via Twitter, and then waiting hours to half-heartedly call them off, doesn't count as trying to sabotage the Electoral College vote count? Is “fight like hell” categorically different than “get in their face” https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/25/politics/maxine-waters-trump-officials/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/25/politics/maxine-waters-trump-.... Is lighting cities on fire for months categorically different? It’s ugly, low-brow politics, like Democrats pioneered. I’d love to ban all of it. But I’m not impressed by efforts to draw categorical distinctions between different events. Either egging on rioting and political violence is acceptable or it’s not. Democrats have apparently decided it’s acceptable.

dctoedt 3y ago
> Just because there’s a legal theory that supports trying to game manual recounts doesn’t mean you should do it. On that, we agree. But I've come around to the view that SCOTUS should have let the 2000 Florida recount proceed, with appropriate guardrails, instead of just shutting it down. > Is “fight like hell” categorically different than “get in their face” .... Is lighting cities on fire for months categorically different? ... Either egging on rioting and political violence is acceptable or it’s not. Democrats have apparently decided it’s acceptable. Your last-quoted sentence just above is nonsense; the first rhetorical question betrays black-and-white thinking; and the second rhetorical question assumes facts not in evidence. (We agree about the "Either egging on rioting ..." part.) First of all, context matters: It's one thing for a semi-backbencher congresswoman to say "get in their face." It's another matter entirely for the outgoing POTUS to say, "fight like hell" on Vote Counting Day to an armed mob that he summoned, and then to send them off to the location of the counting, and finally to sit watching them on TV (and even encouraging them) as they storm the Capitol and cause elected representatives to flee for their lives. Second: If you feel compelled to paint all "Democrats" with the same brush, then please don't use Maxine Waters — and sure as hell don't use sporadic acts of arson (NOT "lighting cities on fire for months") — as supposedly being representative of Dems. Otherwise, we could proclaim, "Republicans want to execute Jews who invoke Satan," or whatever TF it was that was said in the moronic video clip that was making the rounds a couple of days ago. Every large group has its outliers, and its idiots, and its dangerous idiots.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 3y ago
  > On that, we agree. But I've come around to the view that SCOTUS should have let the 2000 Florida recount proceed, with appropriate guardrails, instead of just shutting it down. No, the machine recount should have been the final word. It doesn’t actually matter what the votes were—from a statistical standpoint it was a tie. It’s more important that the process not seem open to manipulation (and the process happening in Florida was not something anyone could trust). >,First of all, context matters: No, baseline political norms must be black and white. Political parties disagree about fundamental things, like God and how to raise children. They often find each other’s values disgusting, and worry about how their kids will fare in the country the other side is creating. These people will never see eye to eye on context-laden issues. The norms must be such that you can operate within them alongside people you don’t like and don’t trust. > It's one thing for one backbencher congresswoman to say "get in their face." It's another matter entirely for the outgoing POTUS to say, "fight like hell" on Vote Counting Day to an armed mob that he summoned and then to send them off to the location of the counting, and finally to sit watching them on TV (and even encouraging them) as they invade the Capitol and disrupt the proceedings. It’s a difference in degree (e.g. protests to disrupt the Kavanaugh hearing) not a difference in kind. Especially when you consider something like RESISTANCE—taxpayer paid employees of the federal government basically committing mutiny against their CEO that the taxpayers duly elected. > Second: If you feel compelled to paint all "Democrats" with the same brush, then please don't use Maxine Waters — and sure as hell don't use sporadic acts of arson (NOT "lighting cities on fire for months") — as supposedly being representative of Dems. It wasn’t isolated acts of arson. Every storefront in my wife’s office block in DC was smashed. Courthouses were lit on fire in Portland. And the whole Democratic Party sanctioned and egged on the rioting, saying “riots are the voice of the unheard,” for months.