4 ms·

> 2) There is no administrative ostracism. Nobody gets kicked out by brownshirts for expressing their view. To be clear, you are on record as equating content

by danans 3y ago

> 2) There is no administrative ostracism. Nobody gets kicked out by brownshirts for expressing their view. To be clear, you are on record as equating content moderation on private platforms with Nazism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung#:~:text=The%20SA%20were%20colloquially%20called,shirt%20with%20a%20brown%20tie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung#:~:text=The%20S....

Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago
*Only to grammar nazis.
- danans 3y ago
  No, the definition of Brownshirt is pretty unambiguous: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sa https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sa There isn't an alternative grammatical parsing that changes that.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago
    I hope you realize that you have given a link to an encyclopedia to show the definition of a word. The fifth edition of the American Heritage Dictionary, published in 2011, already gave a second definition of brownshirt: >A racist, especially a violent, right-wing one.[0] Oxford Dictionary has an even broader definition[1] As noted by other users, "brownshirt" is also used to describe "anyone in authority."[2] I actually debated writing "pedantism nazi" instead of "grammar nazi" because I knew you would make that exact argument that grammar is not relevant. I also considered "semantics nazi" but decided against it as semantics is "the study of meanings"[3], but it is clear that you are actually more concerned with creating records of fault and "ignorance",[4] while you allow yourself to define GP's transgression in vague terms like "equate" meaning anything from regarding as equal or equivalent to "comparable"[5]. You claim that the meaning is unambiguous yet this nonexistent second meaning is so prevalent that GP had never heard of the first one. [0] https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Brownshirt https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Brownshirt [1] https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=Brownshirt https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=Brown... [2] https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20Brownshirts https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20Brownshirt... [3] https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38650782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38650782 [5] https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equating https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equating
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - danans 3y ago
      You are working really hard to gaslight a clearly Nazi thing as a non-Nazi thing. Sturmabteilung is Brownshirt is a Nazi, period.
      - Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago
        Why haven't you asked why I have recast "nazi" into meaning >A person who is perceived to be authoritarian, autocratic, or inflexible; one who seeks to impose his or her views upon others[0]? I am not working to recast anything. You conflated a moral argument that one should not use words that reference Nazism in any way with a factual evaluation of the meaning of the word necessarily being the object of that reference. Had you said "the usage of 'brownshirt' to mean 'one who abuses power' is not considered appropriate" that would be a different matter. What you said, however, is factually wrong; there is no equivalence being made between Nazism and "content moderation." That is to say, you should have said that the second definition is not appropriate, instead of denying it's existence to then change the meaning of the sentence such that it is then equating content moderation on private platforms with Nazism. Unless by "equating" you meant "to make comparable" where "comparable" means "an examination of two or more items to establish similarities and dissimilarities." I should mention that Oxford does not have "comparable" in "equating" and the definition of comparable above is almost certainly not what is meant by "equating" in any event. I personally have never used "brownshirt" to mean "authoritarian." My motivation for my initial post was to show you with a simple double-meaning comment that words can have multiple meanings. [0] https://oed.com/search/advanced/Meanings?textTermText0=nazi&textTermOpt0=WordPhrase https://oed.com/search/advanced/Meanings?textTermText0=nazi&... see also: https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Nazi https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Nazi https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=nazi https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=nazi
      - smittywerben 3y ago
        You're still wrong. Here are 2 uses. brown shirt (plural brown shirts) 1. Alternative form of Brownshirt 2. A worker whose role is identified by a uniform with a brown or khaki shirt. > We really could use a brown shirt in the Park. 2007, Dana Stabenow, A Deeper Sleep, page 36 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brown_shirt https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brown_shirt digital brownshirt (plural digital brownshirts) 1. (slang, US, derogatory) A right-wing blogger. > "They paid actors to make make phony video press releases and paid cash to some reporters who were willing to take it in return for positive stories. And every day they unleash squadrons of digital brownshirts to harass and hector any journalist who is critical of the President." Al Gore (October 2005), “Al Gore Addresses We Media” https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/digital_brownshirt#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/digital_brownshirt#English
mtmail 3y ago
In this context it means moderators or people behaving like authority. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20Brownshirts https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20Browns...
- danans 3y ago
  There is only one definition of Brownshirt, despite contemporary attempts to ameliorate it. Here it is: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sa https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sa
  - kazinator 3y ago
    Oh, in the future, if and when I use the word it will be with a capital B, and it will definitely be a Nazi reference. When I don't intend a Nazi reference, I will pick a different color of shirt, like green or blue.
kazinator 3y ago
I see; I was not aware that there is a specific connection between Nazis and the "brownshirt" term, though it is obviously a reference to some kind of uniform.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  Too late, you're On The Record™. And this one goes into your permanent record, no getting out of this blunder.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    Oh yeah? Well don't get too distressed. Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?
  - danans 3y ago
    To the contrary, they did the right thing by admitting their ignorance in not knowing that Brownshirt refers to a group of Nazis. So the record shows that they were willing to learn. That's something.
    - kazinator 3y ago
      In fact, according to a Google ngram and books search, no such term can be attested prior to the rise of the Nazis. There was no single-word brownshirt, capitalized or not, and brown shirt (two words) wasn't used as any sort of idiom referring to an oppressive military though or anything of the sort. It also seems that a two-word form Brown Shirt also saw some use (in reference to the Nazis).
- PhasmaFelis 3y ago
  > I was not aware that there is a specific connection between Nazis and the "brownshirt" term ...Uh huh. What, exactly, did you think it meant? You clearly had something in mind.
- danans 3y ago
  > I see; I was not aware that there is a specific connection between Nazis and the "brownshirt" term, I genuinely appreciate and commend your honesty about the fact that you didn't previously know that. Separately, it's an unfortunate that even on this forum, the term Brownshirt has been watered down to the point that it's lost its Nazi association completely, much like other Nazi terminology that has been rehabilitated in recent years.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
I think he's equating the different flavors of self professed socialists who get into a tizzy any time someone makes a joke online with Nazism. And also, I think it is deliberately hyperbolic so that only people with a sense of humor will refrain from getting in said predictable tizzy about it.
- kazinator 3y ago
  No I'm not; I just don't associate "brownshirt" with Nazis. In my mind, I always see someone handing out parking tickets or something. It also conveys low status. Rules are made by higher status people in white shirts, but interpreted rigidly by lower status in brown/green/blue/...
  - Nursie 3y ago
    No, brownshirt is most definitely a Nazi thing, paramilitary thugs. If you've been throwing that term around for a while, this might explain any odd reactions you've got.
    - kazinator 3y ago
      No, I haven't; I can probably count on two fingers the number of times I have used it in thirty years?
- danans 3y ago
  Looks like according to them it was not a joke at all, but a knowledge gap. Why did you find it funny?
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    I think it's funny because it's only to the people the term applies that it isn't funny to draw the comparison. It's like a joke about the people who don't get the joke, it's very meta and it's an inside joke that most people get.

by danans 3y ago

Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago

*Only to grammar nazis.

danans 3y ago
No, the definition of Brownshirt is pretty unambiguous: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sa https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sa There isn't an alternative grammatical parsing that changes that.
- Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago
  I hope you realize that you have given a link to an encyclopedia to show the definition of a word. The fifth edition of the American Heritage Dictionary, published in 2011, already gave a second definition of brownshirt: >A racist, especially a violent, right-wing one.[0] Oxford Dictionary has an even broader definition[1] As noted by other users, "brownshirt" is also used to describe "anyone in authority."[2] I actually debated writing "pedantism nazi" instead of "grammar nazi" because I knew you would make that exact argument that grammar is not relevant. I also considered "semantics nazi" but decided against it as semantics is "the study of meanings"[3], but it is clear that you are actually more concerned with creating records of fault and "ignorance",[4] while you allow yourself to define GP's transgression in vague terms like "equate" meaning anything from regarding as equal or equivalent to "comparable"[5]. You claim that the meaning is unambiguous yet this nonexistent second meaning is so prevalent that GP had never heard of the first one. [0] https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Brownshirt https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Brownshirt [1] https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=Brownshirt https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=Brown... [2] https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20Brownshirts https://urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20Brownshirt... [3] https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38650782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38650782 [5] https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equating https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equating
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - danans 3y ago
    You are working really hard to gaslight a clearly Nazi thing as a non-Nazi thing. Sturmabteilung is Brownshirt is a Nazi, period.
    - Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago
      Why haven't you asked why I have recast "nazi" into meaning >A person who is perceived to be authoritarian, autocratic, or inflexible; one who seeks to impose his or her views upon others[0]? I am not working to recast anything. You conflated a moral argument that one should not use words that reference Nazism in any way with a factual evaluation of the meaning of the word necessarily being the object of that reference. Had you said "the usage of 'brownshirt' to mean 'one who abuses power' is not considered appropriate" that would be a different matter. What you said, however, is factually wrong; there is no equivalence being made between Nazism and "content moderation." That is to say, you should have said that the second definition is not appropriate, instead of denying it's existence to then change the meaning of the sentence such that it is then equating content moderation on private platforms with Nazism. Unless by "equating" you meant "to make comparable" where "comparable" means "an examination of two or more items to establish similarities and dissimilarities." I should mention that Oxford does not have "comparable" in "equating" and the definition of comparable above is almost certainly not what is meant by "equating" in any event. I personally have never used "brownshirt" to mean "authoritarian." My motivation for my initial post was to show you with a simple double-meaning comment that words can have multiple meanings. [0] https://oed.com/search/advanced/Meanings?textTermText0=nazi&textTermOpt0=WordPhrase https://oed.com/search/advanced/Meanings?textTermText0=nazi&... see also: https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Nazi https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Nazi https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=nazi https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=nazi
    - smittywerben 3y ago
      You're still wrong. Here are 2 uses. brown shirt (plural brown shirts) 1. Alternative form of Brownshirt 2. A worker whose role is identified by a uniform with a brown or khaki shirt. > We really could use a brown shirt in the Park. 2007, Dana Stabenow, A Deeper Sleep, page 36 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brown_shirt https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brown_shirt digital brownshirt (plural digital brownshirts) 1. (slang, US, derogatory) A right-wing blogger. > "They paid actors to make make phony video press releases and paid cash to some reporters who were willing to take it in return for positive stories. And every day they unleash squadrons of digital brownshirts to harass and hector any journalist who is critical of the President." Al Gore (October 2005), “Al Gore Addresses We Media” https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/digital_brownshirt#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/digital_brownshirt#English

mtmail 3y ago

In this context it means moderators or people behaving like authority. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20Brownshirts https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20Browns...

danans 3y ago
There is only one definition of Brownshirt, despite contemporary attempts to ameliorate it. Here it is: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sa https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-sa
- kazinator 3y ago
  Oh, in the future, if and when I use the word it will be with a capital B, and it will definitely be a Nazi reference. When I don't intend a Nazi reference, I will pick a different color of shirt, like green or blue.

kazinator 3y ago

I see; I was not aware that there is a specific connection between Nazis and the "brownshirt" term, though it is obviously a reference to some kind of uniform.

friend_and_foe 3y ago
Too late, you're On The Record™. And this one goes into your permanent record, no getting out of this blunder.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  Oh yeah? Well don't get too distressed. Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?
- danans 3y ago
  To the contrary, they did the right thing by admitting their ignorance in not knowing that Brownshirt refers to a group of Nazis. So the record shows that they were willing to learn. That's something.
  - kazinator 3y ago
    In fact, according to a Google ngram and books search, no such term can be attested prior to the rise of the Nazis. There was no single-word brownshirt, capitalized or not, and brown shirt (two words) wasn't used as any sort of idiom referring to an oppressive military though or anything of the sort. It also seems that a two-word form Brown Shirt also saw some use (in reference to the Nazis).
PhasmaFelis 3y ago
> I was not aware that there is a specific connection between Nazis and the "brownshirt" term ...Uh huh. What, exactly, did you think it meant? You clearly had something in mind.
danans 3y ago
> I see; I was not aware that there is a specific connection between Nazis and the "brownshirt" term, I genuinely appreciate and commend your honesty about the fact that you didn't previously know that. Separately, it's an unfortunate that even on this forum, the term Brownshirt has been watered down to the point that it's lost its Nazi association completely, much like other Nazi terminology that has been rehabilitated in recent years.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

I think he's equating the different flavors of self professed socialists who get into a tizzy any time someone makes a joke online with Nazism. And also, I think it is deliberately hyperbolic so that only people with a sense of humor will refrain from getting in said predictable tizzy about it.

kazinator 3y ago
No I'm not; I just don't associate "brownshirt" with Nazis. In my mind, I always see someone handing out parking tickets or something. It also conveys low status. Rules are made by higher status people in white shirts, but interpreted rigidly by lower status in brown/green/blue/...
- Nursie 3y ago
  No, brownshirt is most definitely a Nazi thing, paramilitary thugs. If you've been throwing that term around for a while, this might explain any odd reactions you've got.
  - kazinator 3y ago
    No, I haven't; I can probably count on two fingers the number of times I have used it in thirty years?
danans 3y ago
Looks like according to them it was not a joke at all, but a knowledge gap. Why did you find it funny?
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  I think it's funny because it's only to the people the term applies that it isn't funny to draw the comparison. It's like a joke about the people who don't get the joke, it's very meta and it's an inside joke that most people get.