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Which is one reason DevOps teams don't make sense. DevOps is a skill developers need to have. It needs to be embedded within the development team, not some othe

Which is one reason DevOps teams don't make sense. DevOps is a skill developers need to have. It needs to be embedded within the development team, not some other team's responsibility who only focuses on "DevOps" work. You create the build and deployment pipelines and move on to other project work. If you give someone a role and say their job is to do "DevOps" they will HAVE to invent things to do because that's such a small part of a project and once implemented doesn't need a ton of maintenance.

ponector 3y ago
It is not about DevOps. In every organization if you do your work good and have no fuckups - you will not be recognized and promoted. But if you are hero-firefighter - managers will love you and help with promotion. Because visibility is a key! Key to everything in the corporate life. If your work is not visible for managers - you are doing nothing.
- tstrimple 3y ago
  Of course visibility is key. What other kind of option is there? > “We have no idea what you did this year and no one has any idea of the value you’re providing, but what the hell. Here’s a huge bonus!” That doesn’t seem a little insane to you?
  - godelski 3y ago
    > What other kind of option is there? Placing value based on the work assigned? Obviously insanely easier said than done. But I think we should embrace the fuzziness a bit. Your manager should have a very good idea of this. If they don't, then they're the ones that should be let go because this is a significant aspect of their job. (may be learned through indirect methods) > That doesn’t seem a little insane to you? Honestly, a lot of business practices and economics sounds insane to me. Similarly a lot of alternative suggestions (especially the latter) since they tend to not address the underlying issues but be bandaids. The ones that don't sound insane are often boring and very reasonable, but I think we've established that that's considered undesirable when you're evaluated by visibility. I think this is probably a significant part of the negative feedback loop.
- JohnMakin 3y ago
  The fortunate thing is there are measurable metrics you can hit and improve upon as an X-Ops team, but implementing those takes buyin from the org or enough freedom to go rogue and do it on your own.
  - godelski 3y ago
    > The fortunate thing is there are measurable metrics you can hit and improve upon as an X-Ops team Question(s): - What are the metrics? - How aligned are the metrics with the actual goal? - What isn't covered by the metrics? - How is what's not covered by metrics evaluated? - Can what's not currently covered by metrics theoretically be covered by some potentially unknown metric? (best guess)
- godelski 3y ago
  > It is not [just] DevOps Definitely agree. In a sister comment[0] I mention a concept I've been calling "Goodhart's Hell" for a more general term. But I think what you are specifically mentioning is sometimes laughably called "Loud Laboring"[1]. I think this all falls under the broader umbrella of metric hacking and thus Goodhart's Law. Idk why, but it really does seem like metric hacking is extremely pervasive in our modern society, and can be found nearly everywhere. What upsets me the most is that it too is found in the sciences. There also appears to be a strong correlation between the popularity (or hype) of a field and metric hacking. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38647582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38647582 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37147707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37147707 || https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/09/forget-quiet-quitting-loud-laborers-are-killing-workplace-morale.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/09/forget-quiet-quitting-loud-l...

ponector 3y ago

It is not about DevOps. In every organization if you do your work good and have no fuckups - you will not be recognized and promoted. But if you are hero-firefighter - managers will love you and help with promotion. Because visibility is a key! Key to everything in the corporate life. If your work is not visible for managers - you are doing nothing.

tstrimple 3y ago
Of course visibility is key. What other kind of option is there? > “We have no idea what you did this year and no one has any idea of the value you’re providing, but what the hell. Here’s a huge bonus!” That doesn’t seem a little insane to you?
- godelski 3y ago
  > What other kind of option is there? Placing value based on the work assigned? Obviously insanely easier said than done. But I think we should embrace the fuzziness a bit. Your manager should have a very good idea of this. If they don't, then they're the ones that should be let go because this is a significant aspect of their job. (may be learned through indirect methods) > That doesn’t seem a little insane to you? Honestly, a lot of business practices and economics sounds insane to me. Similarly a lot of alternative suggestions (especially the latter) since they tend to not address the underlying issues but be bandaids. The ones that don't sound insane are often boring and very reasonable, but I think we've established that that's considered undesirable when you're evaluated by visibility. I think this is probably a significant part of the negative feedback loop.
JohnMakin 3y ago
The fortunate thing is there are measurable metrics you can hit and improve upon as an X-Ops team, but implementing those takes buyin from the org or enough freedom to go rogue and do it on your own.
- godelski 3y ago
  > The fortunate thing is there are measurable metrics you can hit and improve upon as an X-Ops team Question(s): - What are the metrics? - How aligned are the metrics with the actual goal? - What isn't covered by the metrics? - How is what's not covered by metrics evaluated? - Can what's not currently covered by metrics theoretically be covered by some potentially unknown metric? (best guess)
godelski 3y ago
> It is not [just] DevOps Definitely agree. In a sister comment[0] I mention a concept I've been calling "Goodhart's Hell" for a more general term. But I think what you are specifically mentioning is sometimes laughably called "Loud Laboring"[1]. I think this all falls under the broader umbrella of metric hacking and thus Goodhart's Law. Idk why, but it really does seem like metric hacking is extremely pervasive in our modern society, and can be found nearly everywhere. What upsets me the most is that it too is found in the sciences. There also appears to be a strong correlation between the popularity (or hype) of a field and metric hacking. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38647582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38647582 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37147707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37147707 || https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/09/forget-quiet-quitting-loud-laborers-are-killing-workplace-morale.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/09/forget-quiet-quitting-loud-l...