4 ms·

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought an infinite combo that doesn't require user at interaction results in a draw. So your first example would be this,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought an infinite combo that doesn't require user at interaction results in a draw. So your first example would be this, but the tapping one isn't. It's been years since i played however.

swagasaurus-rex 3y ago
Infinite combos that require the player to opt into repeating an action will not end in a draw, because the player is expected to decide on the number of times the combo will repeat for. Infinite combos that not optional but win you the game instantly, like the sanguine bond + exquisite blood combo I mentioned earlier, means you just win. Infinite combos that are not optional but do not win you the game result in a draw.
- pierat 3y ago
  > Infinite combos that are not optional but do not win you the game result in a draw. There's the 'donate an unsacrificable islandhome creature to an opponent who has no islands'. Infinite amount of state based checks happen that are unavoidable, and cause the game to draw.
dmorgan81 3y ago
It depends. If the game state changes, say like a change in one player’s life total, then the loop won’t usually end in a draw. In the example above the opponent will eventually die. In paper once a player has demonstrated a loop they must choose a number of times to repeat the loop and then the game is fast forwarded to the chosen end state. For example, a player might execute a loop that could gain them infinite life, but really they must choose a point to stop. Usually that player will choose 1,000,000,000,000 or another “essentially infinite” value and the game moves on. There are infinite loops that can draw the game, but in a tournament game if one player can take an action that would end the loop, say by destroying one of the loop pieces, that player must take that action. Only if no player can end the loop does the game end in draw.
- thom 3y ago
  Is that true? If your opponent creates a loop but you have a spell that can end it, I don’t believe you’re compelled to cast it if you decide the draw is more favourable. Definitely don’t like that rule if it exists.
  - dmorgan81 3y ago
    The Magic tournament rules cover this: “Some loops are sustained by choices rather than actions. In these cases, the rules above may be applied, with the player making a different choice rather than ceasing to take an action. The game moves to the point where the player makes that choice. If the choice involves hidden information, a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop.” Basically if a player has open information, like an activated ability, that could end the loop that player is not allowed to not use it to keep the loop going indefinitely. If that player instead has hidden information, i.e. a card in hand, that could end the loop any player can call a judge to confirm that and force the player to end the loop. Note this doesn’t extend past cards in hand, though. If a player has some way to search their deck for a card that could end the loop, they are not forced to search and then play that card. At that level it moves from a player intentionally delaying the game with the resources at hand or in play to a judge dictating a player’s actions.
    - thom 3y ago
      Don’t like that at all! I suppose some chess tournaments have “no draws before move X” but it’s a feeble rule that players easily overcome with repetitions etc. Forcing someone to take an action that they might deem worse for their chances seems wrong.
      - dmorgan81 3y ago
        It’s mostly for time purposes. Nobody wants to wait another hour for the round to end because someone is trying to draw their game, which means those players potentially have to play yet another game. In reality it doesn’t happen that often. In your games with your friends feel free to ignore this rule. If you made a deck that managed to pull it off I would think it was cool.
thom 3y ago
There’s never a time where players can’t interact - just passing priority or putting triggered abilities on the stack are actions. And each time this could happen the game checks state based actions to see if someone has won. That said, if both players have no options or just pass (which is more pronounced online) then you can end up in inescapable loops that cause draws. A classic example is this Luis Scott-Vargas game: https://youtu.be/AGXG5rNe_tI?feature=shared https://youtu.be/AGXG5rNe_tI?feature=shared
deleted 3y ago
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swagasaurus-rex 3y ago

Infinite combos that require the player to opt into repeating an action will not end in a draw, because the player is expected to decide on the number of times the combo will repeat for. Infinite combos that not optional but win you the game instantly, like the sanguine bond + exquisite blood combo I mentioned earlier, means you just win. Infinite combos that are not optional but do not win you the game result in a draw.

pierat 3y ago
> Infinite combos that are not optional but do not win you the game result in a draw. There's the 'donate an unsacrificable islandhome creature to an opponent who has no islands'. Infinite amount of state based checks happen that are unavoidable, and cause the game to draw.

dmorgan81 3y ago

It depends. If the game state changes, say like a change in one player’s life total, then the loop won’t usually end in a draw. In the example above the opponent will eventually die. In paper once a player has demonstrated a loop they must choose a number of times to repeat the loop and then the game is fast forwarded to the chosen end state. For example, a player might execute a loop that could gain them infinite life, but really they must choose a point to stop. Usually that player will choose 1,000,000,000,000 or another “essentially infinite” value and the game moves on. There are infinite loops that can draw the game, but in a tournament game if one player can take an action that would end the loop, say by destroying one of the loop pieces, that player must take that action. Only if no player can end the loop does the game end in draw.

thom 3y ago
Is that true? If your opponent creates a loop but you have a spell that can end it, I don’t believe you’re compelled to cast it if you decide the draw is more favourable. Definitely don’t like that rule if it exists.
- dmorgan81 3y ago
  The Magic tournament rules cover this: “Some loops are sustained by choices rather than actions. In these cases, the rules above may be applied, with the player making a different choice rather than ceasing to take an action. The game moves to the point where the player makes that choice. If the choice involves hidden information, a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop.” Basically if a player has open information, like an activated ability, that could end the loop that player is not allowed to not use it to keep the loop going indefinitely. If that player instead has hidden information, i.e. a card in hand, that could end the loop any player can call a judge to confirm that and force the player to end the loop. Note this doesn’t extend past cards in hand, though. If a player has some way to search their deck for a card that could end the loop, they are not forced to search and then play that card. At that level it moves from a player intentionally delaying the game with the resources at hand or in play to a judge dictating a player’s actions.
  - thom 3y ago
    Don’t like that at all! I suppose some chess tournaments have “no draws before move X” but it’s a feeble rule that players easily overcome with repetitions etc. Forcing someone to take an action that they might deem worse for their chances seems wrong.
    - dmorgan81 3y ago
      It’s mostly for time purposes. Nobody wants to wait another hour for the round to end because someone is trying to draw their game, which means those players potentially have to play yet another game. In reality it doesn’t happen that often. In your games with your friends feel free to ignore this rule. If you made a deck that managed to pull it off I would think it was cool.

thom 3y ago

There’s never a time where players can’t interact - just passing priority or putting triggered abilities on the stack are actions. And each time this could happen the game checks state based actions to see if someone has won. That said, if both players have no options or just pass (which is more pronounced online) then you can end up in inescapable loops that cause draws. A classic example is this Luis Scott-Vargas game: https://youtu.be/AGXG5rNe_tI?feature=shared https://youtu.be/AGXG5rNe_tI?feature=shared

deleted 3y ago

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