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See my response, but I think it's possible. When I first saw this post, my first instinct as a professional (and nationally-certified) translator and polyglot

See my response, but I think it's possible. When I first saw this post, my first instinct as a professional (and nationally-certified) translator and polyglot (fluent in 4 languages at some point of my life) was to brush it off. But I see he places appropriate emphasis on vocabulary acquisition, which many language learners fail to do. It's possible, at the very least. I did this in about 4-5 months at age 17 while living and studying in France (plus I was dreaming and thinking in the language by that point), and I only knew the basics before leaving. I consider myself smart, but not "dangerously intelligent". I have scored very high on foreign language aptitude tests, so I'm not totally representative. But it's certainly possible.

shuzchen 15y ago
I agree with the parents that doubt the veracity of these claims. There is so much more to a language than just vocabulary and grammar that I can't imagine anybody picking up on their own in 4-5 months. For example, in Japanese, there are many levels of formality that affect the vocabulary you select as well as the way you say something. And it's not just a matter of using one level with a particular person, how formal you are is very dynamic, and can change back and forth in the same conversation. Also, it's pretty much impossible to reach a native level productiveness of giseigo and giongo (different types of mimetic words) without being born and raised there. However, if you're a language maven, then I can see how you can obtain high fluency in a short amount of time (although even the mavens I came across had issue with giseigo/giongo production, figure that out). But don't assume the same technique a maven uses will apply to your everyday person. I've studied Japanese for going on 14 years now (8 of those years being intense study: masters program, study abroad) and the more that I learn the more that I realize that I don't know.
- eric_bullington 15y ago
  Japanese is notoriously hard to master. It's probably not very revealing to use your experiences with Japanese as a benchmark when the blog author is talking about his experiences with French, a language very close to English, particularly in vocabulary (for obvious historical reasons).
  - shuzchen 15y ago
    You would have a point if the post author didn't also claim to be having the same success with Russian (also rated notoriously hard to master for english speakers). The tone of the article also implies that the same technique can be applied to any language. That said, I still doubt actual fluency is obtainable for non-mavens even in the romance languages. In my experience, all early learners have a naive view of their own ability, no matter what the target language is.
    - mattmanser 15y ago
      He mentions right at the start it took longer with Russian. RTFA. The US Foreign Service Institute makes estimates for language difficulties for native English speakers, and they seem to be spot on in terms of comparative difficulty—Russian seems to be taking twice as long as French did for me, and they estimate languages like Chinese to take twice as long as Russian.
  - ekianjo 15y ago
    Agree on the Japanese point. The way you build sentences is just TOO different. You can definitely learn Japanese and speak it as a "gaijin" (meaning using european-style sentences with Japanese words) but speaking Japanese like a Japanese takes tremendous efforts and a serious re-wiring of your own brain as to how you approach language. I'd seriously doubt if anyone can claim they can learn Japanese to a high level of fluency in a matter of months or even a few years.
    - v0cab 15y ago
      "Agree on the Japanese point. The way you build sentences is just TOO different. You can definitely learn Japanese and speak it as a "gaijin" (meaning using european-style sentences with Japanese words) but speaking Japanese like a Japanese takes tremendous efforts and a serious re-wiring of your own brain as to how you approach language." I don't agree with this. The way you have to 're-wire' your brain isn't too different from what you do while learning a programming language. The difficult part of Japanese would be all that vocabulary and all those funny symbols and combinations of symbols. As a Korean learner, vocabulary is a mountain that I make great progress in scaling, yet my progress seems insignificant compared to the size of the mountain.
- dalke 15y ago
  As an example in the US, we had a co-worker who was from Cyprus but lived in the US for 5 years to get a BS and MS degree. He knew English before coming to the US and spoke fluent English, but would be lost when we talked about US popular culture. Before then I hadn't really realized how often people made allusion to old TV shows, 15 year old politics, childhood books, etc.
acqq 15y ago
I think you're a good counter-example for what you claim. You knew the basics before -- how much was this "basics"? Couldn't it be at least four years of foreign language classes in school? Second, you were 17. Third, you were fully immersed in the country of native speakers, probably spending all the time in language learning. Fourth, you say you were evaluated to be very talented for learning languages, do you know where you were at this curve (were you in the top 1% or so)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation Fifth, which exactly diploma did you get then? If you were accepted to the French university, I believe you passed B2 and not C1. Please do be more precise, I'd really like to know the truth.
- eric_bullington 15y ago
  What did I claim? I claimed that it was possible for someone to learn a language fluently in 4-5 months, because I did so. To be honest, your demanding tone is a little off-putting, particularly when you're asking personnel questions about my life and schooling. However, in the interest of science, I'll try to answer the questions: 1. The "basic". No, in the US, it's pretty rare to have four years of language training by age 17. I had two years of French before I left, but it was very basic French, on par with the way languages are taught in France. Not, for example, at the level at which languages are taught in Germany or Sweden. I knew the fundamentals of French grammar, but I could speak only very basic phrases when I first arrived in France. I could not carry on a basic conversation in French before my departure. 2. Yes, I was 17. I mentioned that. 3. Yes, I was immersed; I mentioned that as a mitigating factor. 4. Yes, I was in the top 1% of language learners according to aptitude tests. But my whole point in writing the post was to say that learning a language fluently in 4-5 months was possible (because I had done so), not that it had actually happened to the person in question. It may or may not have. But I tend to believe him. 5. What does a diploma have to do with this? In fact, I did not go to a French university, because I wanted to go to an American university. Seeing the responses of some of you makes me understand a little better why some of the developers I've interviewed and worked with who have strong math/CS backgrounds are so surprised that I'm not able to immediately understand some complex algorithm. We all have different aptitudes, and just because something seems difficult for you, does not mean it is so for another person. I know some of you with strong math and CS training and aptitude are much quicker at understanding algorithms that I am (although I'm pretty quick at picking up PL syntax thanks to my natural language aptitude). I can totally accept that. Why is it so hard to believe that someone who has worked as a professional, ATA-certified translator would be quicker, even much quicker, at learning natural languages than others? If you think an average person could learn this material in a year, don't you think it's possible that a motivated individual with an aptitude for languages could do so in half that time? Isn't it possible that the blog author might be such a person?
_pferreir_ 15y ago
It doesn't cost me to believe that (if you are good and dedicate a lot of time to it) you can get to B1 or B2 in 4-5 months. C1 is a completely different story though. I work for an international organization and people around here are naturally predisposed to learn new languages. It's amazing to see how much you can learn from native speakers, however C1 would require many more hours of interaction than 5 months can provide.
- eric_bullington 15y ago
  Why don't you ask some of the people you work with who are naturally good at languages if they've ever learned a language to a C1 level in 5 months? I imagine some of them will not only confirm that they learned a language to a level equivalent to C1 in that amount of time, but some may also tell you that they learned a language to C2-level fluency in around that amount of time.
  - acqq 15y ago
    We obviously have different ideas what C1 and C2 are. I'm sorry, I know only what exams look like here in this German speaking country for the purpose of obtaining B2 in order to get the right to study and I know how much harder C1 is (as much that a lot of native speakers not trained to write organized texts wouldn't pass it without targeted preparations), and it matches the specification I've linked, see the top post. Can you please specify your reference for that what you consider a "C1" level? Also please note that once we relax the starting conditions, allowing two years of preparations and avoiding a formal C1 exam, we can't really call it "C1 in five months." I believe you that you sounded awesome, I believe you you've received a lot of praise for your ability, we just don't agree if that was a C1 as defined.
    - eric_bullington 15y ago
      If it really matters to you, you see my real name. Get in touch with me, and I'll put you in touch with university professors from Europe who will vouch for my progress in the language. But only if you promise to come back on here with your real name (like I'm using mine) and admit you were wrong. Otherwise, I'm sorry we've both lost this amount of time arguing past each other, when you've clearly made up your mind that no one can learn a language fluently in 5 months, to and even beyond the C1 level as described in the standards posted (the CEFR had not yet been adopted when I was in school). PS -- And to be clear, I'm not unique, or particularly unusual in my abilities. I've known many other language learners who have learned a language fluently in under 6 months. In fact, most of my translator and interpreter colleagues probably can learn a language in about that amount of time. PPS -- I'm offline to play with my kids. Good luck.

shuzchen 15y ago

I agree with the parents that doubt the veracity of these claims. There is so much more to a language than just vocabulary and grammar that I can't imagine anybody picking up on their own in 4-5 months. For example, in Japanese, there are many levels of formality that affect the vocabulary you select as well as the way you say something. And it's not just a matter of using one level with a particular person, how formal you are is very dynamic, and can change back and forth in the same conversation. Also, it's pretty much impossible to reach a native level productiveness of giseigo and giongo (different types of mimetic words) without being born and raised there. However, if you're a language maven, then I can see how you can obtain high fluency in a short amount of time (although even the mavens I came across had issue with giseigo/giongo production, figure that out). But don't assume the same technique a maven uses will apply to your everyday person. I've studied Japanese for going on 14 years now (8 of those years being intense study: masters program, study abroad) and the more that I learn the more that I realize that I don't know.

eric_bullington 15y ago
Japanese is notoriously hard to master. It's probably not very revealing to use your experiences with Japanese as a benchmark when the blog author is talking about his experiences with French, a language very close to English, particularly in vocabulary (for obvious historical reasons).
- shuzchen 15y ago
  You would have a point if the post author didn't also claim to be having the same success with Russian (also rated notoriously hard to master for english speakers). The tone of the article also implies that the same technique can be applied to any language. That said, I still doubt actual fluency is obtainable for non-mavens even in the romance languages. In my experience, all early learners have a naive view of their own ability, no matter what the target language is.
  - mattmanser 15y ago
    He mentions right at the start it took longer with Russian. RTFA. The US Foreign Service Institute makes estimates for language difficulties for native English speakers, and they seem to be spot on in terms of comparative difficulty—Russian seems to be taking twice as long as French did for me, and they estimate languages like Chinese to take twice as long as Russian.
- ekianjo 15y ago
  Agree on the Japanese point. The way you build sentences is just TOO different. You can definitely learn Japanese and speak it as a "gaijin" (meaning using european-style sentences with Japanese words) but speaking Japanese like a Japanese takes tremendous efforts and a serious re-wiring of your own brain as to how you approach language. I'd seriously doubt if anyone can claim they can learn Japanese to a high level of fluency in a matter of months or even a few years.
  - v0cab 15y ago
    "Agree on the Japanese point. The way you build sentences is just TOO different. You can definitely learn Japanese and speak it as a "gaijin" (meaning using european-style sentences with Japanese words) but speaking Japanese like a Japanese takes tremendous efforts and a serious re-wiring of your own brain as to how you approach language." I don't agree with this. The way you have to 're-wire' your brain isn't too different from what you do while learning a programming language. The difficult part of Japanese would be all that vocabulary and all those funny symbols and combinations of symbols. As a Korean learner, vocabulary is a mountain that I make great progress in scaling, yet my progress seems insignificant compared to the size of the mountain.
dalke 15y ago
As an example in the US, we had a co-worker who was from Cyprus but lived in the US for 5 years to get a BS and MS degree. He knew English before coming to the US and spoke fluent English, but would be lost when we talked about US popular culture. Before then I hadn't really realized how often people made allusion to old TV shows, 15 year old politics, childhood books, etc.

acqq 15y ago

I think you're a good counter-example for what you claim. You knew the basics before -- how much was this "basics"? Couldn't it be at least four years of foreign language classes in school? Second, you were 17. Third, you were fully immersed in the country of native speakers, probably spending all the time in language learning. Fourth, you say you were evaluated to be very talented for learning languages, do you know where you were at this curve (were you in the top 1% or so)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation Fifth, which exactly diploma did you get then? If you were accepted to the French university, I believe you passed B2 and not C1. Please do be more precise, I'd really like to know the truth.

eric_bullington 15y ago
What did I claim? I claimed that it was possible for someone to learn a language fluently in 4-5 months, because I did so. To be honest, your demanding tone is a little off-putting, particularly when you're asking personnel questions about my life and schooling. However, in the interest of science, I'll try to answer the questions: 1. The "basic". No, in the US, it's pretty rare to have four years of language training by age 17. I had two years of French before I left, but it was very basic French, on par with the way languages are taught in France. Not, for example, at the level at which languages are taught in Germany or Sweden. I knew the fundamentals of French grammar, but I could speak only very basic phrases when I first arrived in France. I could not carry on a basic conversation in French before my departure. 2. Yes, I was 17. I mentioned that. 3. Yes, I was immersed; I mentioned that as a mitigating factor. 4. Yes, I was in the top 1% of language learners according to aptitude tests. But my whole point in writing the post was to say that learning a language fluently in 4-5 months was possible (because I had done so), not that it had actually happened to the person in question. It may or may not have. But I tend to believe him. 5. What does a diploma have to do with this? In fact, I did not go to a French university, because I wanted to go to an American university. Seeing the responses of some of you makes me understand a little better why some of the developers I've interviewed and worked with who have strong math/CS backgrounds are so surprised that I'm not able to immediately understand some complex algorithm. We all have different aptitudes, and just because something seems difficult for you, does not mean it is so for another person. I know some of you with strong math and CS training and aptitude are much quicker at understanding algorithms that I am (although I'm pretty quick at picking up PL syntax thanks to my natural language aptitude). I can totally accept that. Why is it so hard to believe that someone who has worked as a professional, ATA-certified translator would be quicker, even much quicker, at learning natural languages than others? If you think an average person could learn this material in a year, don't you think it's possible that a motivated individual with an aptitude for languages could do so in half that time? Isn't it possible that the blog author might be such a person?

_pferreir_ 15y ago

It doesn't cost me to believe that (if you are good and dedicate a lot of time to it) you can get to B1 or B2 in 4-5 months. C1 is a completely different story though. I work for an international organization and people around here are naturally predisposed to learn new languages. It's amazing to see how much you can learn from native speakers, however C1 would require many more hours of interaction than 5 months can provide.

eric_bullington 15y ago
Why don't you ask some of the people you work with who are naturally good at languages if they've ever learned a language to a C1 level in 5 months? I imagine some of them will not only confirm that they learned a language to a level equivalent to C1 in that amount of time, but some may also tell you that they learned a language to C2-level fluency in around that amount of time.
- acqq 15y ago
  We obviously have different ideas what C1 and C2 are. I'm sorry, I know only what exams look like here in this German speaking country for the purpose of obtaining B2 in order to get the right to study and I know how much harder C1 is (as much that a lot of native speakers not trained to write organized texts wouldn't pass it without targeted preparations), and it matches the specification I've linked, see the top post. Can you please specify your reference for that what you consider a "C1" level? Also please note that once we relax the starting conditions, allowing two years of preparations and avoiding a formal C1 exam, we can't really call it "C1 in five months." I believe you that you sounded awesome, I believe you you've received a lot of praise for your ability, we just don't agree if that was a C1 as defined.
  - eric_bullington 15y ago
    If it really matters to you, you see my real name. Get in touch with me, and I'll put you in touch with university professors from Europe who will vouch for my progress in the language. But only if you promise to come back on here with your real name (like I'm using mine) and admit you were wrong. Otherwise, I'm sorry we've both lost this amount of time arguing past each other, when you've clearly made up your mind that no one can learn a language fluently in 5 months, to and even beyond the C1 level as described in the standards posted (the CEFR had not yet been adopted when I was in school). PS -- And to be clear, I'm not unique, or particularly unusual in my abilities. I've known many other language learners who have learned a language fluently in under 6 months. In fact, most of my translator and interpreter colleagues probably can learn a language in about that amount of time. PPS -- I'm offline to play with my kids. Good luck.